Zamaria
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Interviewer: And all right, so my name is Vrindavani and we are having a conversation with Zamaria for the Trans Abortions Oral History Project. Today is November 1st, 2024, and this conversation is taking place virtually. Okay, so how would you like to start? Would you like to tell me a little bit about yourself, like your name, your pronouns, and maybe like where you grew up?
Participant: Yeah. Hello. Hi. I'm Zamaria. I am 31 years old. I am a non-Black Indigenous person from Oaxaca. I come from the Mixtec-speaking people. And I've been living in L.A. since I was two, one and a half, two. I grew up in Leimert Park up till the age of 16. And then I couch surfed for a while and stayed in West LA for like a few years before I moved to Boyle Heights for like about 10 years. And that was the majority of my 20s. And I've been living in Long Beach for four years now. And, yeah, I'm basically kind of stuck right now in the States but I'm grateful to be here.
Interviewer: Yeah did you share what your pronouns are? Sorry.
Participant: Oh, no, thank you. Pronouns are they, them.
Interviewer: Okay. Um, yeah, so you've been all around LA then. I didn't realize how much LA is like deep in your roots and your history.
Participant: Yes, very much so.
Interviewer: Do you want to talk more about like your family or like more –
Participant: Yes um so I mean family. I'm like thinking immediately like, okay, yes, bio family I'm assuming. So I am the youngest of three kids, I have two older sisters. Um we are all are from Oaxaca. My parents got here like in their early 20s. And I forget, I forget, I'm like, I'm not, I don't get asked frequently about my family. So give me a moment as I practice talking about my family. Yes, my mother gave birth to all of her children, including me, while she was still a teen. And I think that's very telling of just, I think, how parenthood starts really young, at least, and kind of the community that I belong to. And I think it's hard for children to be able to decide if they want to be parents, but I know, to my understanding, I think my mom was the only one who wanted to abort me. And I think that makes sense. I think by the third time, you're like, okay, I don't want to have to do this. But yeah, I would say that my parents being very young and being throttled into parenthood and then being undocumented in the States really defined a lot of both their parenting, their lifestyle and, in turn, my childhood. And yeah, I tend to share that with a lot of like, I think back then, when I was younger and I didn't understand, there was a lot of confusion, a lot of personalizing it, and now I have, say, with a lot of deep reverence for how hard it is to be indigenous people having to navigate assimilating, surviving in a country that doesn't even treat their own indigenous people well, you know, so that there's a lot to navigate. And so, yeah, I think a lot of my background, a lot of my roots is deeply intertwined with like the history of, the history of this like struggle for true liberation. And I'm really really grateful that that's something I have a deep understanding at such a young age.
Interviewer: Yeah I guess I wanted to ask you more about you said something about your mom wanting to abort you. Was it like as like a conversation you had with her, or how did you kind of find that out?
Participant: So yeah, it was really beautiful how I found, out it was actually an accident. I mean, I don't know, I still make sense of it. So as the story goes, and I'm sure you'll have more questions about this, but for the listeners listening in, I am someone who is deeply also involved in the abortion world. I was first introduced by managing my own at-home abortions with the use of papaya seeds and that opened just a beautiful journey of bodily autonomy as a trans person. But what really was the trigger for the truth to be revealed was my oldest sister. She's kind of been the one family member I confide in the most and have deep trust with and is kind of the person I can share a lot of my mom wounds, knowing that she knows, because we share a mom, right? What the wounds are made up of. But I was sharing with her in a moment of like deep suicide ideation of like a deep desire of just wanting to go and being tired of having to hold kind of the desire of my very own existence. And I was alluding to the fact that I had felt this as a child. I was treated very different than my sisters. It was very... back then it wasn't, but I think all of my sisters and I were neglected to some degree. Lack of capacity, lack of resources, support for my parents to be the best parents that every child deserves, right? But I think I was treated to a much more different degree of neglect. And I think, yeah, I think there was a very evident absence and interest for me as a kid. And so I was sharing this with my sister in a moment of suicide ideation. And so what she ends up doing is puts me on speaker for our mom to hear. And I'm not upset at her for doing that. I think she did ask for my consent if she could share what was happening with our mother. And I said, sure. But even in that moment, I like, prior to that, I was talking about how like, I felt this and like, I don't like I don't even think our own mom wanted me. I think I said something along those lines. And so my, I guess she puts me on speaker, I get off the phone. I don't know how we ended up that phone call, but after the phone call drops, after we hang up, she basically tells her mother, it's OK if you wanted to abort Zamaria, but Zamaria deserves to know. How my sister came up with the word abort, how she came up with that statement, she doesn't know herself. I've asked her to revisit this conversation because it felt very intuitive, it felt very… the moment she said it, it was the truth. And my mom was being confronted with that truth by her oldest child. But it also was very hard for my mom to receive that. And her immediate response was being defensive. So she reactively gets on an Uber ride to come visit me at my home in Long Beach. And she doesn't ever come to my home. She doesn't ever really come into my inner world. Our relationship at that time also was reflective of her absence in my life. And so she came to my door, knocked on my door. But luckily my sister warned me. She's like, hey this is what happened, just so you know, our mom was on her way to you. And so I greeted her and we had a conversation in my kitchen table. And yeah, she was able to not only express really what her desire was. But even in that moment, she was like, I choose me. And it was such a beautiful moment because really what I was asking her, and I, like, one, it was beautiful because my own story with abortion really allowed me to depersonalize what was happening and truly personalize or see my mom's humanity in that moment above my own. Like I don't know how to explain it, but when I used to abort I used to always like think of every ancestor who could not abort and what a privilege it was to be able to practice that, not knowing that the ancestor that I was talking about wasn't even an ancestor who had… it was my mother. It was my mother who couldn't abort. And I just, I felt this sense of like, my heart broke for her because the weight she has and continues to carry for not embracing motherhood with me specifically really defined a lot of her relationships. Because anyone would just look at my mother, look at me and the conclusion would be, she's a bad mom. So yeah, she's never really allowed that to change her truth, which is she never wanted a third child. And that didn't change even after I was born. And even in that moment, I was asking her for her love. She's like, what do you want? And I was like, your love. And she's like, I choose me, I can't give you that. And it was beautiful. I now think of that as, like, my favorite love story is the one where she could look at me in the eyes and still say, like, I choose me. It's me. And yeah, that absolutely now kind of reaffirms my desire to ensure that no other woman has to go through what my mom had to live through. I've been very, very, very lucky to be trusted by so many people who in moment of crisis need that support. And I would just say as someone who supported people through abortion, nothing to me is more meaningful when I've been able to do it with a minor. Because then I think of my mother. And that hasn't happened frequently, I've only experienced that once, but that one time alone was enough for me to feel like that's the closest I get to bringing justice to both my mother and I. And but that was the tangent, yeah. I know I said a lot so I'm gonna pause here.
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Interviewer: I mean that was really beautiful and thank you for sharing that story about your mother because, yeah, I mean from what you're sharing too about her trying to survive like her having any kind of autonomy over her body was really taken from her.
Participant: Right and realizing that like it's not she's struggling to embrace me, she's struggling to embrace what always betrayed her choice, which was this forced parent… being mothered to a <inaudible 13:16>. She was done with like two.
Interviewer: Yeah, definitely. Um, so did you already have like, you're like, were you already starting like having… because I know you have like a history of abortions that you're really like, you know, vocal about? Have you already started kind of that journey like when you had this conversation with her?
Participant: Yeah, so if I could share a little bit about that because I think it's also so like, how do we explain some things when it just feels so divine and maybe coincidence and timing? But I had aborted at least four times before this conversation with my mom. And I see a lot of striking similarities between the story between my mother and I, even in our own relationship with, yeah, I would call it life work. So for me, because of my indigeneity and because of just the tension I've had with like actual medical industrial complex, I cannot imagine aborting any other way if it's not like the comfort of my own home and me managing it. That's like, to me, the most empowering but the safest way for me to do it. And so my mom also, even in her pregnancy… not so much in her pregnancy, but in birthing all her children, she experienced that alone. So we were gravity babies, my my sisters and I, and so what I mean by that is her water would break, she would be standing, and we would just come out. And so she never was assisted, there was no witnesses, and she said she experienced no pain, which I'm like, power to you. I don't think many people can say that. And so for me, doing it at home, me being the one who manages it, really feels like it's a continuation of this kind of telling of indigenous people's deep knowledge and how to care for themselves, especially when they're given like the autonomy to experience their body in… because I don't know, I think even my mom, like even when and she was birthing me and then she didn't want it, right? The fact that she was able to experience that alone, I have this deep feeling that that would have been her preferred way than having people around her. And I think a lot of that has to do with just the way bodies can be very surveilled around in clinics and in those kind of settings. But my first birth was, my first abortion was really, really beautiful because it was a miscarriage, but I call it an abortion because I feel like there was a level of intentionality. And by that I mean, I didn't know I was I was pregnant. I did not know I was pregnant because I was having occasional bleeding and I was pregnant through a lover, a longtime lover, and I was poly. I am… and at the time I was living with my trans partner who we were having really, really great sex with a strap on. I don't know if I'm allowed to say all these things, but us trans folks have really amazing sex and we use really cool things like a strap on. And so I was having the time of my life and I have this inside joking story. And by then, like mind you, by then I had never aborted because I swore I was infertile. I love having unprotected sex. I test regularly, but I love having unprotected sex. And so I would always joke that I was fertile, but if I ever got pregnant, I would absolutely abort. And the only exception of me aborting was if I had a trans miracle. Meaning if I had sex with another trans person who didn't have the genitalia to impregnate me, and if somehow I got pregnant, I would keep that baby and would do a TV tour showing all the trans people how to have sex to have a baby. Like, I would, I just would have, like, I would just swear that, yeah, anyway. So I was having sex with my trans partner with a strap on, and I was just like, hey, I feel really fertile, and if I'm pregnant, like, it's absolutely your baby, and we're having a trans miracle, like, I'm so, because you're the only person I'm having sex with. And this person was just like, okay, you're silly, but also, if you were pregnant, we would need a pregnancy test, because there's no, like, way that that could be possible, I don't produce sperm. So I also have major stomach problems. I have IBS. And so I started taking papaya supplements and they're just literally like seeds. The papaya seeds crushed up in capsules and you're supposed to take them to help you. But it literally says don't take if you're pregnant. I did not know I was pregnant because it had been like months since I had had unprotected sex. I thought I was bleeding. And so I was taking these capsules and having sex with a strap-on and it just happens that when they pull out the strap-on, and I'm gonna get really visual, this is visual stuff. I don't know what it is till this day, but they pull it out and there's like, if I were to describe it, there was like a purple, like thinner than a tortilla, but like circular like a pancake, but it's not that perfect, wrapped around the entire strap on. And I've never seen anything like that come out of me, at all like ever. And so I was just like what is this? And so I go into this I go into the shower to like you know just wash and change myself and like trying to see what's going on and that's when I'm like washing my underwear under the like shower and I'm like looking at it and and then it just all hits me, like, what just happened paragraph like, I was just like, oh my goodness, I absolutely, we just killed this with this, like, strap on! Like, it's just, I don't know how to explain it, but it was like a Rosa de Guadalupe telenovela scene, where it's like, the most, I was just like, wait a minute, hold up. Like, and I also had a whole moment of like, you just killed something. Like, it was a split second, but like vocabulary that isn't mine, things that are just ingrained came and then immediately I was like, shake that shit off. No, no, no, no, no, no. This was like a miracle. This was wanted. This is an abortion because this is wanted. But at that point, it's my first time, it had been four months that I had not bled. And so I had insurance at the time and I call USC and I'm like, I have to use the word miscarriage because abortion's not gonna fly with them, right? Like, they're gonna ask too many questions. And so I'm using the word miscarriage, which is awful, because immediately you're like, I am so sorry you had, you know, you have to read… even just to get an idea of what are the next steps after you're beginning to bleed, it's awful. You have to look up, basically, miscarriage. But they basically don't have… their jaw just drops to the floor. They're like, so you just had a miscarriage and the last time you bled was in August and you're calling us in December? Like, are you… like, and they're like, we're gonna call you right back. They never did. No… so what I found out is that no one will really give you services after something like that because they're like liable for anything that may happen to you. So not like, no Planned Parenthood. I had USC, insurance through USC. They didn't take my calls, they didn't call me back, and I just had to let myself on all fours in the tub bleed. And what I love about this story is two things. The person who introduced me to the supplements was my trans partner at the time. And I immediately notified the person who got me pregnant about the situation. They immediately sent funds for if I needed additional medication that I needed to buy, or for any expenses I might incur, while also being emotionally supported by my trans partner. And so I felt very trans in nature because I'm being supported by two multiple people. But also very trans in the fact that, if there's a statistics, and I wish I knew it off the top of my head, but for being a trans person, a trans person is more likely to do an abortion at home. Right, because we know hospitals is also another place where trans folks are experiencing violence through gender discrimination, right? And also as trans folks, we have a long history of not having the autonomy medically, right, through these access points of the state and the law of being able to do what we want with our body. And so we're having to do it, like we're doing something wrong in our home, like kind of hiding… you know, there's a long history to how we've had to navigate it. And so to me, the fact that it was an accident, but also my trans lover got me these papaya… this was going to be my first abortion story, and I just think it's funny, and I love it, because I feel like a heterosexual would be like, what? You had your trans partner supporting you through a pregnancy that wasn't theirs, and also they smashed it with a strap-on? Like, I just, like, like. But then I realized that these papaya supplements really kill the possibility, and if you want to ensure it's down, use a strap-on and smash it. But yeah, I would say after that, now I know exactly what to take, when to take it, and every abortion since gets better because everyone gives me more knowledge on what I need to do for the next time. And the only sad part about being on testosterone now is that I can't abort, because for me aborting is very fun and very liberating. And it shouldn't be a privilege to say that, and I understand that it is. And I also understand the importance and the power of people hearing stories like mine, when we know there's so many stories that exist, like my mother's, which is like, I didn't get to abort, life was hard then, life became… continued to be hard. And it's important to grieve that, and also in our grief, continue to have creativity to say, and the alternative realities to that is possible. And in the same world where that is happening, there's someone like Zamaria who's aborting and laughing through it and having fun. And so yeah, I like to share both… I think my abortion story absolutely starts with my mom. And I'm so grateful that… I will always lead with starting with that. And I'm so grateful that I have the honor and the power to say the story continues through me.
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Interviewer: Yeah, that's really beautiful and funny story. It's like you bang, you banged it out, banged the baby out. I know that's like not the thing to say about with like abortion, right? People don't want to say baby you know like which is like… but like I think you did like a slip. You said your first birth and you said your first abortion. So I don't know if that was like intentional. I don't know if you want to talk about that like…
Participant: Did I say birth about myself ?
Interviewer: Yeah.
Participant: Can you remind me the sentence so I can like –
Interviewer: Well you were so when you were starting your abortion story, you said my first birth, I mean my first abortion. So I don't know if that was like you know if you think about like your abortions as births?
Participant: Oh yes, oh yes, okay, thank you, that's okay. Yeah, yes, yes, yes, thank you, you're really good. Yes, that was intentional because I did birth something that day. And if you ask me, I birthed a storyteller that day. The day I aborted, I aborted a storyteller and I would even say that every time someone aborts, a storyteller is born.
Interviewer: So, how many abortions have you had?
Participant: I've had four.
Interviewer: Do you want to talk about those other experiences as well?
Participant: Yeah. So, the other… yes, and I also just want to give a context that I'm hoping that whoever hears this archive is not just transsexual, genderqueer, expansive folks who are like, I want to know about our history. Hopefully there's some heterosexuals in here who are either, you know, trying to know more information because of a family member or whatever it may be. But for context, I think it's important to say that, like, people who I've aborted with are not necessarily cis and cis people. Like they're cis queer folks, right? Meaning people who, like, people who are queer in their sexuality, but not in their gender. And I've also had abortions with people who are, I would like to say, cis-curious folks who are still not fully out of the closet, but I'm like, you're fucking a trans person. That's for you to like, untangle. But, yeah.
Interviewer: Before you start your story, I mean, do you wanna talk more about your gender story? I mean, since you're kind of, you know, playing <inaudible 27:10>. I kind of also wanna know, like, yeah, your gender story in relation to like your upbringing too, like if there was, you know, any, you know, learning or when did you first, like even… how was your first introduction into the trans community or even into your own gender identity and…
Participant: Yes, maybe we should take a lot of steps back. Like how did you get here? Like how did you come out of the closet, talking about the closet? So I would say, I would start off by saying the way I relate to gender as well as my sexuality is that it's a choice. I absolutely choose this lifestyle as a way of navigating my desires and dreams. I don't necessarily relate to the feeling that I was born this way and there wasn't a conscious, intentional choice. And I would say that, as a person who is queer in both my sexuality and my gender, my throttle into queerness started with my gender before it started with my sexuality. I had a very typical... I have the typical, and I say this in quotation marks, is what is typical, but I had it's a very common trans experience in my upbringing where I did not like dresses. I could not stand the idea of a dress. I didn't like hair, I didn't like anything that resembled the gender that was assigned to me at birth as a girl. And that was really hard because I had two older sisters and I had a mom who liked to dress us all the same. And she did not like… allowed my sisters and I to have autonomy about expression in any way, especially through clothing, and that was very traumatic for her only trans child. And so my first moment of, my first battle for autonomy with my mom was through fighting her of dressing us the same because that was super triggering for me to like… first of all, the best way I could just… <inaudible[29:23] > is a choice and I'd also would say if gender was a circle I was a square. And it was just like every mark that was like supposed to like be like a gender mark, I failed. Every single one of them. I never passed it. And so it was it was it was… uh my mom just kind of threw her hands up and gave up. And she, because of me my older sister no longer had to be matching with her younger sibling of four years. And then I officially didn't go by my name assigned at birth in high school when I survived my first kidnap incident. To me that incident really politicized my understanding of gender even more so. But before then, there were moments that I really… I had personal moments where I even remember the first time I used to love, love, love. I'm just going to back up a little bit to grade school. I used to love playing all types of sports, and I remember the age where kids start liking people of the opposite gender, and I lost all my guy friends because I suddenly was a girl, and they couldn't hang out with me. That was really, really hard for me. I lost all my friends. And then being told, like, you're a girl, like those words are etched in my brain. And they just remind me of further restrictions forced upon me of things I couldn't do or couldn't act because I was quote unquote a girl. And feeling at then a gender dysphoria that I didn't have a name for. But yeah, and fast forward to high school, I officially requested to be called by a boy name, referred by he pronouns after my kidnap incident because the way I understood it, what happened to me happened to me because I was Zamaria and because I was being perceived as a girl and because of how people relate to bodies that are ID perceived as like female. And so at the time, it felt like a very comforting way to reclaim a lot of autonomy, a lot of control. It felt safe to do that. And then I kind of scrapped that into like, oh, that was just a traumatic response. But I explored my sexuality at a really, really, really, really young age. And a lot of that had to do with my introduction to my sexuality, which unfortunately started through being <inaudible 32:14> as a child, and then me on my own accord, exploring with little girls. At an age where sex and children don't go together. But I always like knew that I liked girls, and it also felt very confusing until I realized I was trans. And I want to say that like trans is a word that I use, and I will use different words as a placeholder for trans, depending on the context. And I think trans is like a word that won't make sense a lot. I won't go into my indigenous community and say I'm trans. I'll use the words two-spirited more, because that's more tangible for them. But I knew I was trans when I understood what cis was. I always knew what… I always heard the word trans. I had a friend who transitioned in high school. She was this trans girl, and I helped her. I was there when she was taking her shots. And that just didn't feel like the words that resonated with me then because the way I understood trans then, and I think the way it was also constructed then, was like I was born in the wrong body and I'm just trying to make body match with certain gender. And that just didn't resonate with me. I didn't aspire to have a different genitalia, although I was envious. I definitely had quote-unquote penis envy. And I don't even like to use that terminology because it's very transphobic, but I used to have envy about how boys were regarded and treated. But I never really wanted to change my body. I had nothing wrong with my body, just the way people related to it. And so I dated a trans person. They were my first trans partner, and they were having, they hosted open mics, and they were having a trans-only open mic. And I was trying to realize, like, wait, so am I not allowed? Because then who is allowed? Like, that's when I was like, wait, what is cis? Like, what is the word cis? Like, what does it mean? And once I realized what it meant, I was like, wait, not everybody had a really hard time through every gender marker. And that's when I was like, oh shit, I'm trans. And when I say I'm trans, I'm just trying to tell people I'm not cis. Like, I don't relate to the gender assigned at birth, and that's all I'm trying to say. But yeah, like I was trans, and yeah, that was like about 10 years ago. I went to trans camp, and it's basically when a bunch of trans people in college get together and go to a natural-coordinated state-wide trans camp. And yeah, it was just like, okay, I'm really, I'm one of these cool folks. And so yeah, I feel like I'm very genderqueer. I feel like if there's gender or there's a gender binary, I don't even know if I'm in it or I'm like outside of it. I'm just, it's just, man or woman, neither really resonate with me. And yeah, and I've recently just gotten on, I recently started to medically transition, but I don't know how long that'll last too. Because I'm just, yeah, I just, I, again, I have a very, I have a very gender binary relationship to my… I'm grateful that I understood that I was non-binary once I realized I was trans, because that really helped. But my sexuality didn't make sense until my gender did, because I was like, oh, I thought I was a lesbian, but I like a certain type of genitalia. I like both, you know? Like, if people ask me, like, what's your sexuality? I like to say, I don't care how you pee. If I, like, dig you, I dig you. Because I think sometimes people, they still make a relationship between like words and gender bodies. And I just, I'm like, no, I, <inaudible 36:17>. So I'm like, I'm here for everything. And so a lot of, a lot of the people that I have sex with are genderqueer, you know. And it's really, really beautiful. I think those are also my really favorite stories to be able to be like, no, actually, queer people and trans people, like, abort. And walking into the room and leading with that and people being really confused. Because that's when people have to be confronted with, like, internalized notions of transphobia and gendered bodies. And it's fun. Yeah, I feel like it's a good time. And it's just, it's almost just like an extension. I don't know, I feel like it was really amazing to experience an abortion with another trans person, both of us being trans, and being like, yeah, this is like an ordinary thing. You're bleeding a lot, we're going to handle this, we're going to navigate this together. Which is a different experience from like having an abortion with someone who is gender… they're like cisqueer. Because they still like, again, it's cool regardless that we're queer, period. But I don't know, I feel with trans folks, there's this immediate sense of like, yeah, we're gonna do the thing and it's gonna be scary and we're gonna do it anyways and we're gonna find joy and feeling all the possibilities in our body. And so I'm grateful. I'm grateful for all the experiences. And then, yeah, I love being kind of that person who's like, oh, I have that story. I lived it. I know exists. It's not like, because we see a lot of content already being produced to talk about people like I, like me and like the people, and like you, right? But we don't… it's like a… I don't think we hear enough stories from people directly. And so this is why I'm also just grateful for this archive. So I'm like, no, you're hearing it straight from the mouth.
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Interviewer: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing your stories. You have so many. I wanted to ask you, though, because you mentioned kind of in the beginning of your abortion story that you're kind of sad to not being not to not be able to abort anymore because you're on T. You want to, like, share, talk more about your experience and like why you chose to go on testosterone or like what has… I mean, I don't know, like, yeah, having the ability to abort because you love aborting so much.
Participant: I guess I want to. Yeah. Okay, so it's really interesting, because like 10 years ago I tried to get on testosterone, and it was just like people, like back then there was no room, there was no knowledge about non-binaryness and folks, right? And so it was like, oh, you're trying to be a cis man. And I tried to like, you know, say the appropriate responses so I get what I needed. But it also was, I couldn't move forward with knowing that I was gonna, still at the end of the day, have to entrust so much to an individual who I couldn't be up front with, which was like, hey, actually, I'm not trying to go for this masculine look, I'm going for this androgynous look. And so, yeah, like I think I couldn't even fathom like this type of conversation because already the entry points for me to access and go through the whole, back then I think it was much more strenuous. You still had to have like an intake evaluation, which is really messed up, to evaluate that you're mentally stable, to be able to do what other cis folks do, which is like –
Interviewer: Gender affirming care, yeah.
Participant: Yes, and so I was… it was through Kaiser, and they were just awful. They were really, really bad at doing the intake, and I was just like, you know what? I'm putting my hands up, because I don't even want this that bad. Like, I don't want to look… I don't want facial hair. I'm not trying to pass for a cis man. And now, like, 10 years later, fast forward, I know that, like, medically, I can say the word non-binary, and people know what the hell I'm meaning by that. And I was… I'm shocked. I'm still like… because I'm late in the game, I'm 31, so I'm medically transitioning, I've been knowing I'm trans for 20 years. Like, these days, you see Gen Zs, they're like, I'm trans, and they're on team the next day.
Interviewer: You're still a baby, you're still a baby.
Participant: I'm still a baby, I'm like, but see, our people already have top surgery. I feel like binders are a thing of the past now. I'm like, okay, but anyway, yeah, so I talked to my doctor and my doctor's like, whoever administers my dosage, he knows I'm non-binary. I'm not trying to like look a certain way. And so he just was like, your foot is on the gas pedal at any time. And I'm like, cool. So right now I started on the lowest dosage and actually I haven't hit the ranges that make me medically testosterone dominant individual yet. But a lot of it, if I can get more specific, a lot of it, and I'm realizing that that's the only way it's gonna work with me, even though I'm instructed to take, because I'm on testosterone gel, I do not do needles, I'm supposed to do it on my upper back shoulders because that's a large area muscle that it can absorb the gel. But I also do not wanna grow extra hair in certain places. And so I'm using this gel as an experiment on my own body because it's my own body and I'm conscious of what I'm doing. And so I started putting the gel on the sole of my feet because the sole of your feet can't grow hair. So I'm experimenting with gel in my body, and it's, again, very empowering. And it's fascinating because even when I was transitioning, they're like, how's this going to affect your sex life? I'm like, my partner is on testosterone, or my partner is trans. I don't even have to say they no longer are, but my partner is trans. That hushes them up. But there was a big discussion about how testosterone was going to affect my ability to be fertile. And I just wanted to be like, I abort, trust me. It's not my concern. But also I'm so sad. But my partner reminds me all the time that as soon as I get off on testosterone and I start bleeding, I can get a cream pie and abort again. And so I'm like, okay, yeah, that's true. That is very, very true. But yeah, I've been on testosterone since May and my voice hasn't changed. Like, I'm still-
Interviewer: Taking a low dose and you're taking the gel, the gel version.
Participant: Yeah, I'm taking the gel, but now I'm putting like four pumps because I'm like, I'm just pumping away. So what do I want to change? Okay, I don't want facial hair. To be honest, y'all are gonna laugh and I'm like, I promise to all the listeners, I know what I'm doing. I like the idea that I can experiment, dip my toes so that I can know if I want it or don't want it.
Interviewer: But your body, your choice.
Participant: My partner has like large hands, and my hands are were really tiny and so I saw their hands. And we were putting our hands like, you know, how Tarzan with their lover do it when they're like just putting their hands together. And my hands were so tiny compared to theirs. And so I was just like, oh my God, your hands are so large. And so they pulled away and I think in the moment they got shy and they're like, I've been on T, like kind of. And so I'm an autistic person, so my understanding was I'm on T is how I got my large hands. Originally I wanted to get on T to get large hands, but I quickly found out that T doesn't do that.
Interviewer: Well, I heard like your shoe size could change. I heard that like your feet could grow, but I don't know if that's actually happening.
Participant: Oh God, well, the finger, the hands won't change. So I'm just hoping to change my voice and then I wanna get off of it. Yeah, I don't, I, but also I just, I kinda got bored and I kinda wanna just experiment with my body in the same way sometimes some heterosexuals get bored get a boob job, I get on T. So, you know, there's not much trauma behind that, just me being silly with T.
Interviewer: Yeah, no, that sounds fun. I mean, it sounds like you're, you know, having a fun time with it. And it's like, something that you want to do right now. And it's I mean, it's same thing with your like aborting. It's like you're also experimenting with your body. I don't know. That's the way I see.
Participant: Yeah, yeah. It's like all experimented. I'm like, also, I feel like no one's a better expert of my own body than me, so I'm like, no, actually, yes, you're gonna give me the medication but I'm gonna administer it and I'm gonna find my dosage. But I'm very curious to what the sole of my feet and gel look… it's gonna end up being, I think I'm a genius.
Interviewer: You just have little shoes, little sandals of hair.
Participant: No, the soles of your feet can't grow more ever.
Interviewer: I know, I'm just kidding.
Participant: Wait, but actually, oh my god, imagine like my toe hair starts growing.
Interviewer: You gotta like comb it and gel it and, you know, make it all fancy.
Participant: Have you ever experimented with hormone therapy?
Interviewer: I mean, I've been thinking about testosterone lately because I really like, yeah, the androgynous look I like. And then I also don't know if I like the way my voice sounds when I hear it through like these recordings and stuff. So I get, I think it's like what you're saying. It's like, I am comfortable in my body, but when I'm socializing with other people or how other people perceive me, I don't like that. I want people to perceive me as a person who I don't know what their gender is and I don't, I can't clock them or whatever. I wanna be that kind of, you know, like beyond gender, you know, in other people's eyes. But yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about it. I've been thinking about it, but I'm like having a hard time with shots too, though.
Participant: Yeah, I'm like, no, there's no way I can do the shots, there's no way I can do them.
Interviewer: Yeah, I mean, I was helping my partner with their first like T shots, and some of my friends too, like being like their doula during their shots, and I could do that, but for some reason, I'm like, oh, do I wanna do that for myself? I don't know.
Participant: Right, I used to do it for my partner too, like their T shots, but I can't do it on me. I'm like, I can do it on others, but on me, oh no, suddenly I'm dizzy.
Interviewer: I even went to like a workshop recently where they like, it was like some nursing student who's also trans did this whole like hormone workshop. Let's learn how to put hormones into needles and inject oranges. And I got so much anxiety just like doing it on an orange, like thinking it was me. I was like, what the hell is going on? I didn't use an orange.
Participant: Oh my goodness. I used to have trauma around shots. Let me tell you. Did you too? As a child, I saw them like, oh my god. Yeah, you got to get blood work still. I'm like…
Interviewer: Yeah, it's terrible. I mean, but I appreciate like you wanting to experiment with your body. But I guess I wanted to ask you, when was… so your first abortion experience was like, how many years ago?
Participant: It was 2020.
Interviewer: 2020. Okay.
Participant: It was like December of 2020, and then I went on a marathon of aborting. Like in one year, I aborted like probably twice, back to back, probably. Where was it? Okay, because, okay, yes, because, okay, the story goes that we were having an abortion shower for my first abortion of December, the year 2021. Or was it 2022?
Interviewer: It was 2021.
Participant: I don't know.
Interviewer: You want to talk more about the abortion shower too, a little bit?
Participant: Yeah, yeah. So I'm part of a collective known as Abortion Showers, where instead of throwing baby showers, we throw showers for people who wanted to abort, have aborted, or are even planning to abort. And it's just a way to change the narrative, the culture around stigma about abortion, and also centered around joyful practices. And so prior to joining the collective, I was the second person they had honored in their annual abortion shower series, and I was really excited because I didn't have a quinceanera, and so that was like the closest thing I got to having a cool thing that I really appreciated. And it was really cool because it was a time to connect with folks, like, you know, I was able to connect with you and folks that maybe I wouldn't have otherwise, even if it was virtually. But leading up to that abortion shower, I ended up getting pregnant again, and then aborting. So by that abortion shower, I had aborted twice. And it was cool because the person I had aborted with most recently was present at that abortion shower. And I think it's really important to say that even like… partners can go through an abortion together and I don't think it's I think it's important to be able to uplift and celebrate, right, people being able to move in <inaudible 49:52> during something as amazing as an abortion. And so centering the person who's physically aborting. And I don't… I'm very very I'm like right now even as I'm saying it out loud I want to be very careful because I think people don't have to physically be going through things to be impacted. But I think if and when possible, being able to name specific needs of the person who's going through the, yeah, who's going through it physically, I think is very important. And so it was really amazing that my lover at the time was present at the abortion shower, but the conversation was centered around me. And I really, really, really hold that moment close to heart because I think the following month is when Roe vs. Wade was overturned. And again, this continuation of this theme in my life of like simultaneous realities could exist. The year that this was overturned was the same year that I can say I was host… an abortion shower was hosted in my honor. I don't know. I think those are my favorite stories to share and recognize, because to me, one of the best ways to resist all the things that are preventing us from being able to access bodily autonomy, sovereignty, is when we forget that even when there's so many barriers, legal barriers that exist, we can still experience pockets of our freedom and pockets of joy. And so, yeah, it feels surreal. I feel very privileged to say that, that I had an abortion shower the year Roe versus Wade was overturned. And I'm glad it happened, because now I get to participate, get to help lead an amazing collective known as Abortion Showers. And it's cool because most of the people that I collaborate in that collective are all cis folks. Some of them are queer. And so, again, I just really want to uplift the voices of transqueer folks who are in this abortion work, either as people who've managed to or have had an abortion or help or as doulas. It's such a beautiful embodiment of how, like, I really think the bodies that really truly embody liberation are trans folks. And so to be in actual practice with what we embody and like, it's just, I'm like lost for words. Yeah.
Interviewer: Well, I wanted to ask you, like so you're after your first or even your second abortion experience, you mentioned you started doing like abortion support. And is that just through the abortion showers or what other ways do you provide like abortion support or do abortion work? And like when did that started around your like you know your abortion journey?
Participant: So it started like, and I feel like I was really shy about it. Because, again, my introduction was very specific. I think when you hear about managed, home abortions, you think of herbal, and I'm doing it with fruit. But my introduction to abortion support was because there was a necessity in my community. The first person I supported was another indigenous Oaxacan woman who's my friend. And again, first of all, they didn't have access to Medi-Cal. Even if they wanted to, like the immediate barrier of thinking of going to a hospital was the cost. And there was also a deep lack of trust, and they needed to abort, and they came to me. And it was hard at first to, in that moment, realize that I've gained that kind of trust from people to come to me and make an experience with me, and having to overcome a lot of like... and it's interesting, like this imposter syndrome, but now it feels actually silly, and I don't even wanna use that, because even after taking trainings for abortion at work, a lot of the knowledge that I have feels almost intuitive. It feels, it really, really feels deeply intuitive. Like I don't, it was like almost accidental experience, and it's just, I know. And so, to be able to support a friend during time of need, I feel like that's the only way it would have happened because I feel like I would have always felt that actually that my very unique experience and tension with the industrial complex would make it so I would never be someone supporting someone in those spaces. Because I'm like, no, I need the support, right? But actually it is my deep understanding of the trauma people face going in there that allows me to do my work even better. Because I'm drawing from… and not to ever use myself as self-reference, because I think a lot of the work that we do as doulas is like we have to actively and deeply listen to the needs of the people that we're supporting. But just having the entry point of being of like, because I know that a lot of the patients that I work with and support with, they're black, they're indigenous people. They're accustomed to even when they're talking and people are quiet and they're so-called listening, they're not actually listening and feeling that deeply, that I really try to embody the opposite of that so that I can become that safe, constant person that grounds them and that they can go to and that I could almost be able then to one, help them assess what they need and then be able to advocate for themselves. But going back to the story, my friend was in need and I supported them. And then, you know, that became a story that then she got to tell. And then there was curiosity about who is this person who's supporting with papaya, who's this trans person? And so then the need in my community grew more with like other queer folks who also, you know, they're like, hey, I got a cream pie, but I'm not trying to do it with this person. And so, yeah, it was mostly helping people that I knew. And it was until most recently that it was like new folks that I've never known before. And I appreciate all of them, but the one that I'm like really holding to heart was the most recent one that I supported with because it was a minor and the mom obviously was informed. She needed… I can't work with minors unless I feel like there is some follow-up questioning to that because they're minors and I can also legally get in trouble. But to see a mom support their child in their commitment to stay a child and not be a parent was really healing for me to assist and support with. But what I've learned with this incident, that I do have the permission to share, by the way, I would not share this much detail if I didn't have this person's permission, and I'm not dropping names, but, was realizing that like I… the work that I'm doing and the work that I aspire to do is going to be beyond more than doula support. Because a lot of the community that I want to work with don't ever want to go to these systems of safety. AKA, they don't ever want to go to the police, report a police incident, and nothing ever comes out of that. But by not being recognized by the state as a victim, then you don't have access to many other benefits. And so I had to help them find rehousing, homing, help fundraise for that. Like I'm doing, I'm filling in the gaps in the absence of safety and the support… like, because whatever the state is providing is the opposite of safety for folks that are black, indigenous, undocumented, formerly incarcerated. And so I, yeah, I can't, I feel like my work starts with supporting them through their abortion, but I think aftercare is really, really, really important and it's my favorite part of being a doula. And so I don't like to just let those relationships end the moment the abortion ends. In fact, I think that's where it begins. And so I have a lot of questions at the time that is tied to long-term goals of what it means to support people through all these transitions, especially outside of the system of the state.
Interviewer: I'm also just thinking too, like you mentioned how you had your abortions like at home, self-managed. Like what is your relationship to the state or even like the medical industry and like, why did you decide to have your abortions at home?
>>>>[ Audio Time: 60:00 ]<<<<
Participant: So I would say for many reasons. For like, I think the fact that I'm indigenous really defines my relationship with the healthcare system. And by that, I would say that until I was able to recently be eligible for Medi-Cal, I only received medical help access through either when I was enrolled in school and through the school's like health care, whatever, whatever clinics that they have on campus. But in the state of California, at least my experience was that like there's free health care services for all children regardless of their lack of documentation, up to a certain age. And then it's like, you know, if you're not documented, you just don't have access. And so because I didn't have access for so long to health services, I was a lost, confused, autistic puppy in these rooms. And I didn't know what were basic patient rights. And I used to end up at the ER very frequently because I was struggling with a lot of chronic conditions. One of them being with my stomach. And so they had to perform an ultrasound on my stomach. And when I just have like very visible reactions when I'm in these rooms. Like I start shivering. I'm like I'm a drama, drama in these rooms. But so what I do to like help myself is I close my eyes because the lights because triggering, everything's triggering. And so, things that people should know that I did not know was that if you are, you're not supposed… a nurse is not allowed to be in the room by themselves if their patient is of the opposite gender. And in specific context, for the sake of, like, just trying to get through, I will claim and use my, like, cis-passing privilege to be, like, a cis woman in this moment. And so, I had a male nurse performing an ultrasound on my stomach and I didn't know the protocol was he had to have another female nurse in the room with me and so because I didn't know this and he must have known, he took me into a room and while he was performing the ultrasound, he had lifted my shirt all the way up to my neck and was fondling my nipples with his arm and I didn't realize what was going on because I dissociated and then by the time, it was over I realized. So I have like actual sexual trauma in these rooms. And so like for the longest time getting an x-ray or being half naked around anybody was like really really hard. So there's this like if I can avoid these rooms I will because… and and this is why I would now like really really say say anybody should… and COVID made this really, really hard because they won't let anyone go in… like before you could bring like a whole support system. But this is also why I'm like, indigenous people need a support system, call it doula or call it not, because we don't even know what is allowed and not allowed. Because we don't even have experience in these rooms. Right?
Interviewer: Yeah.
Participant: Like, and so, yeah, but a lot of the people that I support, again, are indigenous people who like, again, I, these stories are one of many that people have. And so, I definitely feel like my story is a reflection of, I don't know if you've heard the saying, like the student is the best teacher. I feel like from knowing like how far and how willing they're willing to take advantage of people's not knowing that I'm like cover all basis of what I will refer to this… even if I don't agree with like, I'm not going to say that safety exists in these regulations that they have, but if you have a regulation, I'm going to have you stand by it. So yeah, even when I think about my kidnap incidents, I'm a survivor, a child survivor of domestic violence, violence really runs deep in my family. Again, police and hospitals have just not been a safe place. They've been the opposite of that. And so this is where I think being an abortion doula, where I like to say like my expertise is at-home abortions. I've helped somebody go through a Planned Parenthood abortion, and even though I have never been on that side, personally, I've been able to support that. But I always like to give a disclaimer that I'm your best fit if you're going for an at-home abortion because that's where I draw a lot of… and I say expertise with quotes because there's so much always constant to learn. But yeah, I just, I don't like any country. I care about the land, the plants, and animals, and people, and I don't really rep any… and yeah, just don't rep anything too hard that isn't that.
Interviewer: Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you for-
Participant: And sorry for no content warning, y'all, I'm so sorry.
Interviewer: No, I appreciate that story, because it's like, I mean, sadly, that's a very common experience, you know, experiencing assault by a medical provider, especially with trans people. Like I know I had my own experience with like a gynecological care of being assaulted during like a routine pap smear when I was like 17. And yeah, I mean, I didn't know that was happening at that time. I just, cause it's, yeah, I was 17. I didn't know what my rights were and I knew I was very uncomfortable at the end of it. And then reflecting back like about that, it's like, oh shit, that was, that was assault. Yeah.
Participant: I'm so sorry.
Interviewer: So thank you.
Participant: Sorry for us both.
Interviewer: It's this state, it's this system, for sure. But I guess I wanted to ask you, so these experiences really impacted your choice and decision to abort at home, too?
Participant: What other decisions impacted my decision?
Interviewer: Your experiences and your history with dealing with the medical system and the state apparatuses really informed your decision of like I'm gonna abort at home.
Participant: Yeah, I mean, I think like again the first time I aborted was like accidental, right? And so it just happened that I was at home. But also like I think it's telling and maybe… like it worked out that way, but if you recall I shared that I did call USC, I did call to like get <inaudible 67:08> concerned. So the biggest part about, or the most in my experience the part that you really want to be careful when you do at-home abortions is making sure that nothing's left inside you that could create an infection, but that's like quote-unquote the biggest risk, right? And so I knew this because I was at the time googling. I was like, I just had a quote unquote miscarriage, what do I do? And I, based on my Google search, I was like, okay, that makes sense. Let me call right and ask for someone, an appointment. And again, the way they handled that call was so telling of how unprepared they were to even support someone with a miscarriage. Because she was… it was first of all unprofessional. They were like… there was a level of judgment in the shock factor of like you're calling us now in December and the last time you bled was in August? Right? And there was also no… I not only called USC, I call Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood's like, we won't help you with any aftercare, even when you do abort here, but also like you didn't do anything here. Like there was a clear like, they're thinking and they're approaching these cases as like, what's gonna be liable for us. They're not thinking about care. They're thinking about how is this gonna affect our pockets, our reputation. And so there was no help from someone like that. That didn't start as an option. And I think it's important to name that. I think when we talk about indigenous people and access to healthcare, people forget how much of the choice is taken the moment resources that are so-called available for the public don't become available to us. So even though I do prefer medical abortions, I need to know at all times that a hospital abortion, a clinical abortion is as much of an option for me. Because then it no longer is a choice. It's taking the fact that this becomes a choice for me. So it didn't start off as a choice because no one wanted to support me. I was left with my trans partner and my former lover to navigate the bleeding that came after the fact. And I'm… not to glorify what happened because that should have never happened to me. I should have gotten a phone call back. And I would say, and now I have awareness that this is my preferred choice, right? That I am… and I think that's what I had to grapple with because really when I first aborted and I called my friend Alejandra who's the co-founder of Abortion Showers, at first I was like, okay, there's nothing to process here because if I'm processing it because I'm stigmatizing this and like, you know, La Rosa de Guadalupe is like Catholic… Catholicism really got to my head. But I was like, no, what I need to always, and I wanna name it, the privilege I have is to be living in California where these kind of things is an option for me. Because in so many other states it's not. And my heart goes out to all the trans folks, as well as everybody who's are on the other states. But yeah, I realized that I prefer to abort at home because it's where I am… it's where I am able to cultivate safety. I'm able to define safety with no limitations. With no limitations. Because I wanna play a music <inaudible 70:25> from the background, and if I want my grandmother's picture right in front of me, and if I want a joint in one hand, I can do it. And no one's… there's something also wonderful of like, I choose who are my witnesses, right? That there's also, there's no documentation of this, right? That the documentation only exists when I decide to share my story. But beyond that, there is no… right? If I ever have to like, go under the radar, with the exception of this archive, which I'm glad it is, right? But you know, people would have to dig for this. Yeah, there's so many ways that I'm able to find safety that I could not experience in the hospitals. And still I will fight till the end that the hospitals still become an option. Both need to exist. So yeah, but also I think… I still think there should be an option for aftercare even if you're not able to like abort it. Like, yeah, I think the aftercare, even in these places that become accessible, it's a long way that we have to go. But yeah, I hope that eliminates a little bit of why my preferred way is this way.
Interviewer: Yeah, thank you for clarifying that. I guess I wanna ask you, what does aftercare look like for a post-abortion experience? So how do you support folks in their aftercare?
Participant: Yeah, well, I like to also really involve community. I think community exists and community will always exist. But I like to say if my patients have like people like that they know that they would like to be involved but don't know how, I'd like to coordinate that. I think it's really beautiful when care can show up in abundance. And I think of community when I think of abundance. And so I like to coordinate if it's upon the patient's wishes among their community to create a care basket. And in the care basket, people can do really personalized things. So like there was one person who really liked ducks, and so we made sure to have duck being like, you know, wrapping paper, we threw like a stuffie that was a duck, like stickers that were ducks, like things like that, right? But the care basket's meant to… you know, when you go visit someone at a hospital, someone says you come with something that helps them, at least navigate the healing process a lot more comfortable, right? And I like to throw in there in a joyful way too. So that can consist of herbal teas, right? We like to get herbal teas based on their taste palate, based on any pain they're experiencing. Some tinctures if we want to include that, right? I like to include some herbal medication that could look like weed if that feels comfortable, right? Throw in a playlist. You know, people sometimes even like throw an actual CD, right? Gift cards for food or homemade cooked food, right? We think about like, I think immediately warmth and food and like… when I think of the aftercare, I leave that with a lot of curiosity, because for people it's different, right? For someone it's like, I just want to sit and cry and come to my altar. And that's what the aftercare looked like. And that was beautiful. And I've had people who were like, I want to go to the ocean and leave an offering. And that's their aftercare. And some people are like, hey, I want to be in bed rest and be the baby, right? Like, I want to be the baby for the next week, and tending to them in that way. And I also like, when I think of the aftercare, I don't even like to think about it like as a single moment, as like what is the practice you're going to weave into, and we can start it together. But hopefully you continue, right, because the healing is ongoing, you know. Like I said, I like to maintain conversations and like relationships and sustain those relationships with these folks after the fact. And for some, I have had really joyful moments where someone's like, actually, I want to go to a restaurant and have a whole moment, like, you know, like a celebratory… and it's, it is so beautiful, and I think the aftercare is defined, but what I'm really like leaning towards is like if I were to define my after-care practice is like what is the person's like… having them practice like tuning in back to their body. Like tuning up beyond like the pain. Like what is your body communicating? Like and don't even… I like to make it very… it doesn't have to be heavy in emotion and it can be, but I'm like they just… without like you practicing self-judgment judgment or feeling like it's too much, just like tell me what you're, like the top of your head what comes to mind that would make you really happy. And we start off there. Because sometimes people are like, all they could think about is the logistics of the aftercare. And I'm like no, no, I just wanted to name it and know that we will handle that. And it's really really beautiful, it's really really beautiful to help people come back to body. And back to body, I mean tending to your body and reminding yourself that like in this moment would… there's something worth celebrating and is that like you decided to honor your choice in your body. And you know maybe there was some pain to that. How do… just yeah. And so it becomes a very unique experience per person and yeah I'm learning every day what what aftercare looks like. But I like to make it very, very personal.
Interviewer: Yeah that's beautiful. It makes me want to have an abortion and you support me <inaudible 75:56>. Just to have the aftercare with you. I just want to do a time check and I don't want to take much more of your time because you shared so much with with me in this recording and I appreciate like everything that you do and who you. Are and I know we have like a history and stuff together, but, is there anything that you didn't share that you would like to share?
Participant: I would say that in my experience of supporting people and being someone who aborts, the most traumatic thing about aborting isn't aborting itself, it's the conditions or lack of resources we're forced to abort under. And I'm not saying that very eloquently. But yes…