Jack Qu’emi Gutierrez
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Interviewer: So, my name is Vrindavani, and we are having a conversation with Jack Qu’emi Gutierrez <phonetic 0:06> for the Trans Abortions Oral History Project. Today is March 28th, 2025, and this conversation is taking place virtually. Did I pronounce your name correctly, Jack?
Participant: It's Jack Qu’emi Gutierrez.
Interviewer: Okay. Thank you. Sorry about that.
Participant: It's all good. That's a mouthful.
Interviewer: I mean, same thing with my name. Yeah, I mean, tell me a little bit about yourself, kind of like where you grew up or a little bit more of your background.
Participant: So I come from a military family and we moved around a bit. But for the most part, I grew up in Miami after my parents split because I stayed in one spot with my mom and my sister. But we're a very ridiculously loud Puerto Rican family. Both parents were born in the tri-state area, heavy accents, very New Yorican, but then moved back to the island, both of them, and then met on the island and then moved back to the States to have us. But I'm very much an East Coaster and now I live on the West Coast and I have to deal with everybody telling me that I'm aggressive. It's so strange that everyone's so soft here. But I've been out here in California for almost nine years now. So lots of big changes and no real root taking. I'm trying to figure that out now in my 30s.
Interviewer: Right, and you said you live mostly with your mom and your sister?
Participant: Yeah, when my parents decided to split up, my dad had to keep getting re-stationed every three years. But when you're, you know, I think at the time I was 11, that happened, you know, you can't get kind of get up and move all the time. It's destabilizing. So they decided to try to keep us in one spot.
Interviewer: Oh, OK, where did, so where did you stay after that?
Participant: In West Kendall, in Miami. I grew up in this little place called West Kendall. It's like 30, 45 minutes from the beach. Let me tell you, growing up in Miami is a trip, especially in the era in which I grew up. You know, Pitbull wasn't quite our president at that point. President of Miami, of course. Because he is Mr. 305. But it was truly an interesting and lovely experience. I just don't think I'd ever live there again.
Interviewer: What kind of relationship did you have with your, with your family growing up?
Participant: We're not close. If that's, if that's like the way to answer that. My mom was a bit of a helicopter mom, you know, very, very concerned about everything all of the time. And then my dad of course was working and stationed somewhere different every three years. So sometimes he'd be in Miami. Sometimes he'd be… he tried to stay as close as possible. So he tried to stay in the same state, but I know he did, you know, he was in the Dominican Republic for a few years. He was in St. Augustine for a few years. He had to go to DC for a few years, a year, a few years. So didn't really see him too much growing up after they split, but he did his best to be present. It's just, unfortunately, his best just still wasn't very consistent. So we didn't have much of a dynamic. And then, of course, my mother and I, her being a helicopter mom, me being a teenager, just lots and lots of friction. But that got a lot better in my, you know, mid to late 20s. Because when you don't live with your parents anymore, there's less of them to stress you out about.
Interviewer: Right, right. So you don't really have a relationship, you were saying, with your biological parents now?
Participant: No, not really. My mother texts me every once in a while. She's, lately, like since my 30s have hit, she'll text me like once a week or something. Just like sending me pictures of the cat, the stray cat that she decided to adopt, or like some flowers, or what she's up to. Or as, I guess my parents are technically Gen Xers because they don't understand what a <inaudible 4:08> method is. So they had babies really early. But they love to send inspirational quotes. I don't know if your parents do this. It's just like, think positive thoughts and everything bad in your life will melt away. And you're like dealing with taxes or something. Thanks mom, this is great. And then sometimes I get like a happy birthday and a Merry Christmas text from my dad. Um, but that's about it. Like, they don't really know what else is going on with me.
Interviewer: Yeah. And are you connected to other like biological family too? Or you said like you had a sister too growing up?
Participant: Yeah, yeah. My sister and I used to be really close. Um, that… I don't know. We kind of drifted apart after… I'm younger, so that could be a thing in itself. I feel like just being the younger bratty sibling. We lived together when I was in college. She had already finished college by then. She's not much older. She just finished school really young. And then we just didn't… we kind of like fell out of each other's lives and have never really reconnected. But we do talk. She's visited me out in LA a few times and we usually have a good time, but she doesn't stay more than like four days. That's kind of our limit for, like family limit. We do four days and then that's kind of it. But it's, we're not on like terrible terms, like we can call each other if we need to. We just don't. It's very, it's a very passive indifference.
Interviewer: What was, so what was your childhood like then growing up in this environment?
Participant: Chaotic. Chaotic, because I, you know, me growing up was just bucking and fighting, not getting along with my mother, because she wanted things a certain way. And I wanted them than whatever the opposite way was. Just lots of fighting with my sister, just being bratty and whiny and my sister wanting to control whatever I did because she's the older sibling and then dad just working and not being there. It was lots of that. Big, loud family with lots of like holiday things, at least until my parents split up. We were very stereotypically Caribbean in the sense that we always got together for a holiday, roasted a pig, and that party would go on till like six in the morning easily. Um, but they stopped doing that after they split up. They didn't even try to split time or anything. I think it was a little hard for them after. And then with my dad moving around, for him to build some kind of consistency. So it got quiet after that. It's like, uh, it went from big loud family does everything together to just a lot of empty silence that, you know, you kind of find your own hobbies and and you go to your room and you stay there and you just entertain yourself. It got real quiet, you know?
Interviewer: And at these like family gatherings, you had like extended family too? Like that would come?
Participant: Yeah, family, friends. The Caribbean way of going like, this is your cousin, but you're not related at all. Or this is your aunt, but it's like a family friend or somebody, or it's like somebody they grew up with. My dad would sometimes drive me and my sister when he had, we used to do weekends with him, but then it turned into kind of whenever he was in town, we'd do some time with him. I say do some time like it's jail, oh Jesus. But he would like drive us to go visit some friends of his that he considered family in different parts of Florida. But I just remember sitting on the couch while everybody partied and just like staring off into nothing or watching the TV because nobody was interacting with us and we were kids, so, you know, we were bored. There's not much else to do. No, no big gatherings after that.
Interviewer: And how is your relationship with your dad, currently, then? You said… is he also just sending you inspirational quotes, and that's about it?
Participant: No, I don't hear from him. I don't hear from him for like months at a time. We don't, we don't speak. Again, not intentionally. It's just like it just there's no, there's no follow up with one another. I try to visit. They all live in Miami. Um, my sister lives, uh, with my mother because she keeps an eye on my mom. But, uh, you know, when I visit, I come and say hi and we usually do an afternoon where we have drinks and my dad cooks and it's lovely and great, but it's not particularly… it's not… it has no real depth at this point. And it's not like we check in. In the in-between we don't do phone calls. Sometimes I get a text from him for holidays and my birthday. And I always make sure to text him. I stopped trying to call because he never answers. So not, there's not much rapport, unfortunately.
Interviewer: I mean, that's, you know, with like trans kids and, you know, I feel like all of us have various relationships with our biological family.
Participant: Yeah.
Interviewer: What was your relationship then to gender growing up?
Participant: You know, that passivity that I mentioned that like, I sometimes call it like a weaponized indifference. Like my family did not try very hard to impress upon me and my sister like too many gender roles or ideas about how they should look. You know, there'd be a moment here and there about how short my hair could be. But other than that, I feel like school and TV really helped shape what I thought I was supposed look like or end up like, especially, you know, to grow up and be socialized, to become a woman. But my dad was so down to play baseball with us. Like there was an abundance of Barbie dolls. There were no, like, I feel like the, the traditional narrative is that you played with toy trucks instead of Barbies, and it turns out you're gay. <inaudible 9:50> quite work out like that for me. It's just, I had a lot of time to think on my own and kind of figure out what I wanted and what I liked. And, you know, many a cringy hairstyle later, turns out that we don't like gender so much. I remember thinking, um, I was actually very excited to grow up and be a woman. I remember feeling that way as a teenager. I'm like, I'm going to be grown and it's going to be great. And I'm going to have big boobs and long hair and I'm gonna have big hoop earrings. I'm going to be… I'm literally going to grow up and look like Jennifer Lopez. What I didn't understand is that's not how life works. And Jennifer Lopez stole all of the ass on the island, so there's none left for me. So that I definitely wasn't gonna grow up to look like her. And of course, you know, I'm almost 34. When I was growing up, especially as a teen, that's when Emo got really popular in like that scene, screamo, MySpace genre. So I feel like I was bound to be at least bisexual, just from that time alone. I feel like a lot of me and my classmates ended up this way because of that. Cause you remember like they had like Emo boys kissing and stuff like that? And everybody was really into it. And I'm not going to lie, teenage me was too. But it changes a part of your brain. You go, that's acceptable. In fact, that's exciting and wonderful. And if we fast forward a decade, it turns out the Emo boys I like to see kissing are trans boys. Ah, it's all making sense. That's why they were wearing the girls, the skinny skinny girls pants. I dig it.
Interviewer: And all the eyeliners.
Participant: Oh yeah, I just like gay people. But I didn't realize that I was also one of the gay people for a bit. I didn't come out as anything but… well, I guess I never really said I was straight, but I definitely was boy crazy. But when I was 14, I saw Katie Lang's music video for Constant Cravings and I thought she was a guy and I went, ha! And then I realized that she's not a guy and I went, oh, okay, I'm into that. I guess I'm a little bi. And that was the whole internal conversation with myself. Because I didn't have parents that were like drilling into my head that these things were wrong. In fact, it just never got… like the idea of being gay wasn't even something that really got discussed until I started using the internet, you know? And then gender didn't come. I didn't I didn't come out to my parents at all for a long time because I wanted to be out of their house because I didn't want them to use it against me. It was more about wanting what little freedom I had because I had a helicopter parent and I didn't want her to restrict me from having a social life any further than she already was. So I didn't come out as anything until I was in my 20s to my parents. But I waited for my sister. I told her before she went to college, because I was like, you can't hurt me if you're in college. You can't like threaten me with this. And then gender became a thing later, at the beginning of college, I want to say. And I remember I was working… I went to a state school in Orlando, and I was working in their LGBTQ plus services office that they had just… apparently the school just didn't have one before 2011, which is bonkers to me. They made an advocacy board and I was the health and wellness chair. And I was doing office hours. And I don't know why this was the case in 2011 but I knew a lot of trans men. There were an absolute metric shit ton of trans men at my college. And when I'd do office hours we'd all hang out and I made friends with all them. And one day… I mean these are all binary trans people though because it's 2011 when you don't really have…
Interviewer: Non-binary yeah.
Participant: Exactly. Non-binary was a word and a thing but it didn't have very much visibility even within the community. And if you wanted to transition in any way, especially in Florida in 2011, you had to have a disorder, get diagnosed, see another doctor, see another doctor, get referrals to do anything. And they only understood, I'm a man. So it wasn't… transition in a medical sense wasn't accessible to me at that time either. But the guys one day just look at me and go, Jack, are you, are you sick? And I'm like, no. They go, what are you? I'm like, I don't know. But I'm gonna get back to you on that one. And that's kind of how that happened. I went to Tumblr, went to the internet, and I gave it a little search. And I was like, I don't know. I don't, I'm not a dude. Definitely not a dude. But if I were a dude, I'd be a dude like in a Leo DiCaprio in Romeo and Juliet way. But also in a Mercutio way from the same movie. But also in a Tybalt way, specifically in a Tybalt way from that same movie, because John Leguizamo as any kind of fruitcake is like, wow, wow, the heels, the toothpick. Do you know what movie I'm referring to?
Interviewer: I'm trying to remember all the characters right now, sorry.
Participant: I need you to look up John Leguizamo as Tybalt. What was it? What year did that come out? In the-
Interviewer: 96 or something, 98 maybe, I don't know.
Participant: Yeah, whatever. That was… that did it for me. I went, that's what my gender is. I need to look it up. Like that. Mind you, it is the gayest thing. 96, that's when it came out, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. I feel like he was like hot. Wasn't he like some like a hot, like quote-unquote hot character or something?
Participant: Yes, absolutely. First of all, John Leguizamo, you're gonna get me down this rabbit hole of like my special interest in John Leguizamo. First of all, he has the sideburns that are pointy and the Emo haircut and it's slick and it's like, yeah. He has the little imp mustache and soul patch, which, now that I'm on T and can grow some facial hair, you bet your ass I'm growing out. Like that's happening right the fuck now. And the little gay vest, and he has a little bit of a speech impediment. And something about that just does it for me. I'm like, yeah, this is my gender. This is who I'm gonna be. Ran my little gay ass back to my office hours and was like, this guy's… no gender, but this. I think I just really, I'm more of a dandy than anything, especially when I like to dress up. So this, the, the little vest and the harness, the chest harness, I was like, bruh, we fast forward a couple of years, turns out I'm into leather. Are we surprised? These are all core moments from childhood.
Interviewer: What was the core moment from childhood about leather?
Participant: Oh God. Just watching John Leguizamo in a gun harness. That's like, he's got belts on belts. He's got shiny guns with his last name engraved into the bottom. And I was like, oh yeah. Mm-hmm. This is my aesthetic. Between that and, like, SLC Punk, I was like, okay, this is the kind of gay I'm gonna be. I see it. I'm gonna be kind of dirty looking. I get it. Also, I, you know, Emo. My first job was at Hot Topic, you know? I was flat-ironing my hair till I was 24. It was a rough choice.
Interviewer: Yeah, you know, it's like you're ready to fight or fuck.
Participant: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. Um, that's great. That's great. I all I can remember is is him in The Pest, right? Vaguely remembering him in The Pest. Do you remember… you ever watch that movie?
Participant: I haven't. I don't think so.
Interviewer: Yeah, I don't know. I just that's all I remember really him from back in the 90s.
Participant: I'm gonna look that up.
Interviewer: Yeah. But so you were saying when you grew up, you were really adamant that you would become a woman. So, like, were you, like, also dressing, like, like, feminine or, like, feminizing, kind of feminizing your, like, yourself to fit what you thought was a woman or?
Participant: I don't know if adamant's the word. I just thought that that's what was going to happen. And it felt, it felt like it just didn't happen for me, and I was waiting around for it. I'm like, hold on, I thought this was supposed to click at some point. But I didn't feel very passionately about it. But I'm sorry, can you repeat your question? That's the only part I really…
Interviewer: Yeah, sorry, um, I was just… yeah, if you were like, you know, wearing feminizing clothes or trying to fit whatever ideal or understanding you thought of like a woman was like growing up?
Participant: Oh, yeah, for sure. But also I, I recall that my my thought process was I was really attracted to femmes. I still am. And I think femmes are hot. And I went, well, I want to be hot, so I have to be femme because that's what I think is hot. Like that was my best bet, I thought. And I gave it a go and let me say, lots of lipstick, but also a fade. We had to work through some aesthetic choices, especially once I stopped being Emo and got a haircut and stopped flattering my hair. It was like, okay, well, femininity, what does that look like? So did a lot of pencil skirts, still had a fade, did a lot of eyebrow care, the photos are ridiculous, but I still love to show them off because I think I made a confusing, but very enthusiastic femme, if that makes sense. I feel like, especially when I look back on photos now, I think I look a little confused, but I look nice. It was nice of me to try that, but it didn't suit my personality much at all. Like you would get the same accent and all the cuss words, but in a pencil skirt. And it just didn't vibe for me in the same way. Thank goodness lockdown happened. And then I just stopped. And it turns out I can embrace the little mustache I was born with and just sit in that place. Don't get me wrong, I still love lipstick, still love mascara, still love all the traditionally feminine things. I just realized that it's just like, personally, I don't have the bandwidth to commit to that identity or that bit at all anymore. Like special occasion, we can do special occasions, but I'd much rather express myself differently. Like, we'll do tattoos now. Not that tattoos aren't feminine, but just that's kind of where I've pivoted. The lipstick budget has gone to a tattoo budget.
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Interviewer: Okay. That was going to be like, my next question was like, how was like the understanding of your gender changed over the years. And you said lockdown, so I was kind of, I guess, in the more recent timeline?
Participant: I didn't understand it much differently. I think I just was practicing… how I wanted to present changed simply because of lockdown, because I didn't have to deal with people looking at me. So I didn't have to deal with, okay, well, I have to be femme now in order for people to be attracted to me. Because I was home all the time, so I didn't have to think about that at all. And then after that… I kept working the entire time because I was working customer service and it was rough. And we weren't an essential business, but for somehow we ended up being able to be open and like, it was chaos. And I just realized how uncomfortable I was being perceived at all. But it's how much worse it got when I explicitly was feminine presenting. Like, the attention from men, especially, was just, it made me uncomfortable. Like, the kinds of people that approach you when you look really feminine and you're 5'4", because I am a short king, it's not for me. And it made me so uncomfortable. So I, you know, pivoted to just doing less and trying to find out what kind of cuts of something I liked more. Whether that be like a pant or a blouse. And it turns out I'm a little butch, which I think we all knew. I think I was always a little butch, but just was really committed to the idea of a pencil skirt.
Interviewer: That's cute. And you were saying like, so your first time really, your introduction to like the trans, or like a trans community was in college with, you said a lot of like trans men like you were in community with?
Participant: Yeah. I, again, that was luck because it's just by coincidence. It so happened that the years that I was at that college was inundated with trans men. Um, I maybe knew two trans fems, but everybody else I knew was a trans man. And there was a gay frat that I can't remember the name of, but my, two of the trans men friends were in the gay frat. And I remember it was a whole kerfuffle because the gay guys were like, what? You're not really gay? Or not, not really gay, but you're not, you're not… you shouldn't be part of this frat because you're not cis. And then of course I was working for that LGBTQ services thing. So it became… that problem became our problem and it just exposed me to more trans people. That and the internet. Shout out to Tumblr, RIP to Tumblr, even though I know it's still there.
Interviewer: Yeah. Not the golden years, not the golden ages. So when was like the first time then you heard the term trans or other like trans terms like gender non-conforming? I mean you said Tumblr but even prior to that was there any other introduction to the trans community for you?
Participant: Just via the internet honestly. I think 19 year old me got on Tumblr and saw trans folks and went, oh my God, yes, slay, that's great. And then eventually by 20, and I, you know, I'm in college at 19, 20. Then I go, oh, oh, no, this makes sense for me too. But I remember feeling the most comfortable going on Tumblr and seeing trans people post about themselves. Because I can't remember this person's username anymore. I wish I remembered their name or username, but there was somebody on there who was a trans man specifically, like explicitly a trans man, but so feminine. Like this person, beautiful curly hair, like a fade, adorable, and would wear lipstick and glitter, and like did drag, and it blew my mind. I remember I blinked while looking at their page for a while, and was like, oh, that's right, you can do this. Because all the trans men I knew, all the trans people I knew, period, were binary trans people, and were very much trying to go as south as humanly possible, which upon reflection, 2011 in Florida, I get it. I get why you would want to do that. But that, seeing that person's profile made me go, oh yeah, that makes sense. Because you're right. There are no rules with this. And I think that made it easier for me to come out as agender later and then just kind of give up on words as I've gotten older. A lot of people have assigned me as being a non-binary person, and I guess that fits, but I prefer personally to just refer to myself generally as trans. Because I struggle when people who identify as non-binary explicitly don't identify as trans. I think that's kind of, I don't like it personally. I'm like… they're together, they're the same thing. Well, one is like, you know how a circle, not a circle, sorry, a square can be a rectangle and a rectangle can't be a square. I feel like those things fit in the same way. And it frustrates me when one community abandons the other for the sake of… for me, it feels like it's for the sake of political correctness. I'm like, no, they're the same thing. They're locked in in those ways. And so I just choose to stay trans and it's worked for me. Just been keeping a very ambiguous and vague structure or lack of structure in my gender identity just because it changes all the time. And I'm too lazy to come, you know, start looking for more words to fix it, to like fit into.
Interviewer: So so you said… so you came out like when you were like 20 with your gender? But you first came out like with your sexuality first. Is that correct?
Participant: Yeah. Yeah 14 came out as bi. 20 ish is when I came out as trans. And then I've just stayed in that. And ambiguity in that gray zone for years.
Interviewer: And does your identity of being trans like relate to other aspects of your like identities?
Participant: How so?
Interviewer: Um, or it, like, has it, like, I don't know, changed or even… like, have you thought differently about your sexuality or even, like, your race or ethnicity, um, in relation to your transness? Has it, like, affirmed it? I'm not sure if that is making sense.
Participant: It does, but I'm wondering, I don't know if I, if it, I don't know if it's affirmed anything for me. I've always just experienced all of those identities to just exist together. They inform each other, of course, but I'm not consciously thinking about how they inform anything for me privately. They inform things in the sense like how I get to interact with the world when I'm outside, or if I'm working, or those things become apparent and important at that point, and I have to be confronted with them. But if it's me with myself, now we're chilling. I'm like, when it comes to me, it's never been… like I even told you like how I figured out I'm kind of gay. It's like, well, now I'm really gay. I just went, okay. I've always been very cool with whatever it is I wanna do. Sometimes I go, bitch, is that too vulnerable? But other than that, it's like, okay, if this is what we're doing today, if this word feels good today, if this space feels good today, then that's what we're doing. Otherwise I, you know, don't think about it much, I guess.
Interviewer: Yeah, do you still identify as bisexual?
Participant: No, I just say queer now, because I feel like there's a politicalness to that phrase that definitely… it's like, if you just identify as gay, like truly, honestly, only identify as gay, politically, we're not gonna get along. So don't look for like a deeper connection with me. I'm explicitly in the queer space on purpose. And I, you know, again, I'd like to identify as an equal opportunist, but I will say in the last 10 years, I've gone through phases of like the kinds of people I'm into as well. But still, you know, in theory, an equal opportunist. So not going to, not going to change terms to stick to one team. You know, I will add T for T though. I will add that one because that's fantastic.
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, I was going to kind of like switch gears a little bit about like to abortion related stuff, but I don't know if there is anything else you want to talk about with your gender? Because you also said you came out as agender before you came out as trans.
Participant: Yeah, I feel like agender fits my, what's the word? My ambivalence, I guess, my ambivalence to gender. But that word feels not wrong now. It just feels less common. So it's harder for people to understand. So I just go with trans and that works just as well for me.
Interviewer: Mm hmm. Did you? Sorry, go ahead.
Participant: Oh, no, no, go ahead, please.
Interviewer: Well, I was gonna say, you found that word like on Tumblr? Is that…
Participant: Yeah. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't have it… again, non binary wasn't really a thing. Trans was only understood to be a binary experience, so I had agender and I went, sure, that works.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah, I'm sorry, I cut you off. I don't know if you wanted to add anything.
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Participant: Ah, nah, it's all good. I can't remember what I'm about to say two seconds after I try to say it, so we're so good.
Interviewer: Oh no, okay, I'll try not to cut you off anymore. I'm so sorry about that.
Participant: No, it's fine, please.
Interviewer: Well, I also, because I recall you said you had your abortion, I don't know, I'm not sure if it's like your first abortion experience or your only abortion experience, but you had an abortion experience at like 20, in your 20s, is that correct?
Participant: Yep, I was 20 and it is my only, thank goodness.
Interviewer: And this is like around the same time of you coming out as agender and understanding your gender identity too, is that correct?
Participant: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Oh yeah, I think I had just come out as trans and found the word agender. And then by… when did I get pregnant? It was around my birthday. It was like the month of my birthday. I think it happened like end of April. And then, you know, when the condom broke, and then through May had my birthday, I was like, my period didn't come. So it was a very fresh, it was a freshly uncomfortable experience we love because being pregnant and needing to access an abortion, you know, as a cis person, already difficult, especially in Florida, especially in 2011. But then to have newly come out as not a cis person and then have to do it, there was so much more to do in terms of taking care of myself emotionally that me at 20 didn't know how to do. Amazing, we're doing amazing. But the timing was, I wanna say unfortunate, but at the same time, it led to a lot of really good lessons. And I wouldn't be doing this if it hadn't happened in that timeline. So I guess that works out for us, huh?
Interviewer: Yeah, I was also gonna ask you like, how did you first learn about abortion too? Like prior to your abortion experience?
Participant: Ooh, I think abortion as a concept, I think was something that got discussed… I only remember one conversation at home about it growing up. And I remember I was a teenager and there was a news story about like someone getting pregnant as a teen and wanting to access an abortion. And there was a news story about it, like saying that this person can't get an abortion because they're a teenager or whatever. And my mom asked me my opinion about it. And I was like, I think I said something problematic probably, and she agreed with it. Something like, well, if you choose to have sex and you get pregnant, you have to deal with that consequence, since like children aren't a consequence. But of course I'm a teen going off of what I thought my mother wanted to hear. So when we fast forward to me at 20 needing an abortion, I wasn't going to tell her anything, because I only remembered that one thing. My opinions about abortion access had changed by the time I hit college, and I was part of… well, I don't know what it's called now, but there was this, there was a student organization called Voices for Planned Parenthood, and I joined, and I was part of the chapter for National Organization for Women. So very much a pro-choice person at that time, very much open to people needing to access it and didn't have any problems with that. It's just, I will say, it completely changes your perspective again, even as a pro-choice identifying person, once you need to access it yourself and you go through it yourself. Then you become pro-abortion and you're like, yep, yep, yep, things change.
Interviewer: Right. So who do you think taught you that about the consequences thing? Like, cause you were a teenager at that time.
Participant: That was probably indirectly my mom. Um, just cause again, the helicoptering and her just voicing opinions about whatever felt good for her. And clearly she had a more conservative ideal.
Interviewer: And does she still not know about your abortion experience?
Participant: Oh, no she knows now, yeah. I wanna say when I was 22… my parents don't speak, but I was living off campus with my sister and when I was 22, they like traded off holidays. So one would drive up for Thanksgiving, the other one would drive up for Christmas, even though we don't really celebrate anything, but it's like an excuse to spend time together. And I remember my mother came up for the first holiday weekend. And I don't remember why I decided to tell her. Something came up where like, I was like, okay, well, I have to tell you something. And I remember telling her promise me you're not gonna cry. And I told her what happened. And I you know, I also came out as gay to her. I was like, I am a gay. I know you kind of knew, but surprise. And she goes, she doesn't cry at all. She just stares at me and she goes, Oh my God, I paid like $35 for a card reader to read my fortunes in Key West when I was hanging out with my girls a couple months ago. And she told me that my youngest child was gonna go through a thing and all this. And she told me this was gonna happen. I thought it was a waste of money, but it turns out, not a waste. I'm like, okay, that was <inaudible 35:09>. I'm so glad that you didn't waste $35. That it turns out that it was accurate. Any commentary about what I experienced or maybe my feelings? Okay. I remember I cried, but she was chill with it and we moved past it and it was fine. You know, at that point, it had been a few years, I didn't live at home, she wasn't supporting me in any way. So like, like financially, so what could you do to me? So you're not gonna talk to me? Ooh, we'll just do more of that, you know? Like not… there's just nothing, there's just nothing to like threaten me with so. And I remember because I thought my mom was going to be the difficult one to tell that story to and to come out to, that I remember that a couple months, like a month later when my dad came, I decided to just tell him too, but he was drunk. He was, he, he was going through a breakup and he drank a whole bottle of wine. And I didn't know what was going on at the time, but, uh, my sister was at work or something or she wasn't there and I'm just alone in the house with my dad and he's upset, but he's just quiet, upset, and we start talking, and he mentions something about when I was growing up and how my mom read my diary and knew that I was gay and brought it to him and was like, what are we gonna do? And my dad starts… this is like one of two times only I've ever seen my father cry, and he starts to cry in front of me, and he's like, and I told her, that's my kid, I don't care. I'm like, oh, oh, <inaudible 36:35>? When mom was here, I told her these things, and I'm gonna tell you them now. And then we had a little cry, And it was chill. And the next day we went to go hang out with my dad's cousin and she asked a question about a nickname she saw for me on, at the time Facebook was popular, so on Facebook. And I told her, yeah, my ex-girlfriend gave me that nickname. And she goes, what? You had a girlfriend? I'm like, yeah, I've had a few. Because again, the day before, I had this conversation with my father. So I'm thinking we're fine. And I remember his reaction was to cough and to look at me and to shake his head and be like, no, no, no. I'm like, okay. And we've never really spoken about it since. I did bring someone home. My last relationship was a very serious one. And I did for the first time bring them, bring someone home to meet my parents. And that went super well. But unfortunately I'm no longer with that partner. So even though the experience was great and my parents got to experience me as Jack. And after that meeting, apparently my sister was texting me, letting me know that my dad actually started calling me Jack, even though I've been Jack for a long time, a long time. But you know, I think it's another experience to have someone there who knows me as Jack and knows me how I am now and to see me happy. So they started to respect the identity more because they had the practice of that day. Hopefully, now that I'm not with that partner, that we don't backtrack on that. But that's the last update I have on my parents really interacting with my gender or my identity in any way. Otherwise, it just doesn't really get talked about.
Interviewer: And that was all kind of through you, your abortion, sharing your abortion experience with them?
Participant: Yeah. Yeah. We did… I was like, let's do the whole conversation in one go. Rip the band-aids off.
Interviewer: Right. Well, how did how did your gender and like your sexuality impact your abortion experience then?
Participant: It made it harder, if I'm being honest. Not for me as an individual I think. Like it turns out I'm terrified of being pregnant and it turns out it grosses me out and I don't like it and I would really never want to be pregnant again. It was really bad for my mental health, especially with you know the relationship I was in at the time and the place I was in at the time. But if I… I guess those feelings still would have been there if I had not been out. But being out and then going to a clinic and seeing how sweet they were trying to be and trying to advocate for myself and say what my pronouns were, but also not feeling super confident because it was still a new thing for me. And also being very concerned that if I didn't adhere to a specific identity, that I wouldn't get the same healthcare that I needed. I wouldn't get quality healthcare. You know, I had to choose a battle in that moment and I chose I wanted to get this abortion over with. So I focused on that. It made it a little bit scarier, but I don't regret the process, you know, and I don't, I don't, I don't know, you can't regret a coming out process that, you know, just happened. It's not like I chose like today is when I'll realize that I'm trans. I'm happy it happened in the way that it did. I think it can, it made me confront a lot of things that I got to do early, I think.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 40:01 ]<<<<
Interviewer: Like early in terms of like, um, coming out with, and with your idea and identities and understanding who you are?
Participant: Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, you, I was in a women's clinic, I was put into a space where it was very clearly like, oh, like I'm realizing very clearly like, oh, I don't belong in many a space that I, you know, used to be able to go into without, you know, not that it was unwelcoming and like, you need to get out, but it was unwelcoming in the sense that it's like, it didn't acknowledge people like me at all. You know, they didn't have cultural competency training for gender or in gender identity. They barely had them for queer folks at that point. It was just of its time, I guess. Even though these conversations were happening, they just weren't getting instilled into whatever process it was for a clinic, like an intake… or no space for preferred names, no space for pronouns. You would just have to go by what you had, and that was that. No fun, honestly. Bad times.
Interviewer: Right, I mean, it wasn't mainstream at that time, like pronouns and preferred name.
Participant: Exactly. That's what we still used to say with our whole chest. Like, my preferred pronouns are, this is before the conversation about, they're not preferred, these are mandatory. Like, that's how, that's how like, no pun intended, it was like a fetus of an idea. That I then aborted.
Interviewer: Right, and this was in Florida too, like in the 2010s then?
Participant: Oh yeah. And I got my abortion right after… there was legislation that passed in Florida where you had to get a transvaginal ultrasound in order to access an abortion. Because they needed to make sure you were pregnant. And I have a lot of trauma, like, medical settings, not good. Bad times for me. And so that, of course, added to it. You had to get one before and after too. And then they ask you if you wanna see the printout, like the ultrasound. And I'm like, no, no I don't.
Interviewer: Awful.
Participant: It was odd, I'm gonna say. I mean, I get that it's healing for some people, but for me it wasn't, and it was odd and uncomfortable.
Interviewer: I mean, a lot of people in the abortion world say that's like a shaming tactic that they use to like show the ultrasound picture to try to shame or guilt people into their decision.
Participant: Yeah, I'm not a fan.
Interviewer: Right. I mean, so how did you like navigate access to abortion then at that time in Florida? Like you said, there was like a women's clinic that you went to and…
Participant: I went, how did I figure this out? I remember I was terrified and I didn't really know what to do and I did like that whole… I knew Planned Parenthood was a thing because I was a part of that club. But I think, oh God, me and the boyfriend I had at the time, we ended up calling a Planned Parenthood and I made him call and then he gave me a phone. I was terrified and I'm just like, I'm pregnant and I don't wanna be. And thank goodness those folks are so lovely and helpful and they helped navigate it and they told me what to expect and where to go and like, even though they had no clue what a trans person was, I will say they did their very best to make sure I was as comfortable as humanly possible, like truly. And then they're the ones who explained to me that I could get a medication abortion or a surgical one and they gave me pricing and I chose the cheaper one, which was a medication abortion and the idea, again, at the time me not realizing that I would have to get a trans-vaginal ultrasound, I, I chose a medication one explicitly because I was like, okay, well I can do this at home and there won't be a bunch of people in my crotch doing a thousand things. Um, but, uh, yeah, it turned out that that would end up happening anyway to, to a certain extent. Um, but it's, but it's, you know, it's fine. We made it through it. Uh, and then it turns out also that after having a medication abortion, everybody I've talked to who's had one has had a similar experience of just feeling super, super unwell after. Um, I didn't feel normal for two months after. Like my appetite was weird. It's very painful. Like the spotting was a thing. It's rough.
Interviewer: Yeah, I mean, can you talk about that experience more, about taking the medication abortion pills?
Participant: It was so sad for me. Doing the pills themselves wasn't a problem. It's just… I went to the clinic with the boyfriend I had at the time who wasn't really paying attention to what was going on. He fell asleep in the lobby. And there's one time where you can actually bring someone back there to be with you to like support you while they explain this process to you and they give you your first pill. And I had to do it by myself and it sucked. It sucked because I really needed support and I was scared and I didn't know what to expect and then you know I take the bag home and… I'm at the time I'm sharing a bedroom with my sister in this place behind my college and I didn't want to tell her what was going on but she knew something was wrong but she didn't pry, thank goodness. So then I took the kind that dissolve in your cheeks. I did that, within minutes I'm like sick and bleeding a lot and nauseous and I'm in bed for two days Even though they gave me ibuprofen and they gave me, I forget, something else for nausea, it just wasn't a good physical time. Lots of bleeding, lots of dizziness, lots of nausea. And then once that went away, I still didn't really feel like eating. And I was still sad because I didn't hear from that boyfriend. He dropped me off and didn't talk to me for two weeks and only showed back up two weeks later because I had a follow-up and didn't realize that it would be a big, difficult, physically arduous process for me. And didn't seem to care that it was an emotional process for me. Because my body and I, you know, I don't feel good and I didn't want to be pregnant and how traumatizing it was to be pregnant and how much I, you know, it… I was very suicidal at the idea of having to carry this to term. It did not fit with my identity. It did not feel good in my body and I was just left to kind of deal with those feelings by myself and not talk to anybody about it. This is going to come up in therapy for me, I can feel it now. Just because I see a running theme here of those feelings. But I will say I don't regret it at all. I really, I chose that on purpose because I knew that even though that it would be difficult and expensive, especially because I didn't have any money, and then found out quickly that I wouldn't have any support. I was like, well, I'm still doing this, though, because I have the rest of my life to live, and this is the best choice for me. So no regrets at all. I'd do it again. Hopefully I don't have to do it again, but I'd do it again. Once I was done with my medication abortion, I chose to go on the pill because I was like, we're avoiding this, and clearly condoms aren't enough. Because the only reason I got pregnant, because I was using condoms, the condom just broke. Because that happens sometimes. Life, you know, what can you do? And I took a Plan B, but it was too late in my ovulation cycle. So this is a wrap.
Interviewer: I mean abstinence is the only 100%.
Participant: And you know that that wasn't going to happen because your boy was activated.
Interviewer: Right. Well, I mean, that's what people like don't realize, like with birth control, any variation of birth control is not a hundred percent, you know, so… and abortion is actually a hundred percent.
Participant: Right? I'm like, I gotta get free. Plus, and I would have had somebody's demon white baby. We can't do that. That baby could have come out.
Interviewer: So you were having this abortion experience then by yourself. I mean, you said you were living with your sister at the time, but your sister didn't know what was happening? Or did she support you in any capacity or way?
Participant: I actually have no clue if she knew what was going on at the time. I never told her. I never really talked about it. I wrote some articles about it later. You know, once I started working with We Testify. And I know she saw them. My dad did too. But I actually have never really had like a conversation about it with her. It just never seemed important. And she never asked. She just gave me my space, which, good, cause at the time I obviously did not want to talk about it, but it's been, how old am I now? It's been over 10 years. Oh my God, that's crazy. Ah, it's been like almost 14 years at this point. And it just, it's never, there's like no reason to talk… remember how I told you my parent, my family, we don't really, we just kind of, we keep it pushing. We don't really have these conversations.
Interviewer: Yeah. I mean, it's cause like with the medication abortion, it's such a, I don't know. I haven't really heard a story from someone that it's an easy process, um, physically to go through. So like having, like having that, going through that process with your family member and them like not doing anything or trying to support you is also probably difficult too, I assume, right? Like you probably needed a little support.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 49:55 ]<<<<
Participant: I would have loved some. I remember having a cry after because in the in-between of those two weeks, taking my meds and stuff, within the first week, a friend of mine came to my door. He was on his way to go to Bonnaroo. He was going to like road trip to Bonnaroo with his friends. And he stopped by my house with flowers because he knew I was sick. And he didn't know what was going on, but he knew I was sick. And I was like, wow, that's so sweet. And I hadn't heard a word from the boyfriend I had at the time. So I was like, oh man, this is what support's supposed to look like. And it made me cry, because I felt very, very alone. But it, you know, other than that, you move past it. I broke up with the boyfriend after that. And I was nervous, because it was not a good relationship. But I did it, and actually started seeing that friend who brought me flowers. So, you go for the support system.
Interviewer: Yeah, that's cute. I mean, glad that you broke up with that person. That's also terrible that they left you. But also I was gonna ask you if like Planned Parenthood, the people at Planned Parenthood didn't tell you about like the physical symptoms or of that?
Participant: They let you know. They're like, yeah, you might see some spotting. You'll see a lot of bleeding. If you see this much, then it's a problem. If you're soaking through a whole pad, then you should call us. But you're gonna get nauseous. Take this at this time, cause you're gonna get nauseous. Like they let you know. But then it happens, you go, oh shit. Oh wow. Like I didn't understand this process to be as, like it took me out. And I did not understand that in that way until I did it. You know, it's very painful. And the giant ibuprofen they give you is not enough. Give me a Xanex or a Klonopin, put me out, please. It was like, I did not. I remember I was playing Rihanna's Man Down over and over to distract me from what was happening. It's absolutely ridiculous.
Interviewer: It's a good distracting song, I have to say.
Participant: Yeah, yeah, and especially an easy thing to have on repeat while I rock back and forth in pain.
Interviewer: Yeah, you're the man down.
Participant: Yeah, and I didn't know anybody else at that point either who had had an abortion, So this wasn't something I could have a conversation with. But I didn't have anybody to have a conversation with about it. It wasn't until later when I started meeting people at an abortion speak out that I finally met somebody else who also had a medication abortion and they went, bitch. And I went, bitch, this is bad, right? If anything, I would have chosen the surgical one if I had known.
Interviewer: I was gonna ask you that, if you had to do it again, would you go the surgical route?
Participant: I would, I would, because it would be quicker. I would not want… it turns out that personally, anyway, I have like a big problem with having a period. So it, it, it turns out that, you know, having a medication abortion is like having a really bad period. That's it. And that's an understatement of a sentence in itself. So like, yeah, it's not a pleasant experience. So I think I would much rather be uncomfortable for a day or two rather than a couple months. Because again, for me, it was like a process of a few months before I felt normal in my body again. So yeah, I'm, I would definitely do a surgical if I ever had to do it again. But now I have an IUD and I have for over a decade. The pills I think I stayed with. I stayed on birth control, like the pills specifically for maybe, maybe a year, probably less. And then just went for something more permanent. Because I heard that there was a way that I could not just get birth control, but also completely stop my period. And I said, what? Put it inside me. And we've just been locked into that process for decades at this point, which thank goodness because the current administration. I'm like, yep. Yep.
Interviewer: Yeah. I was going to ask you too, like after, so you were in doing the health and wellness, You said organization or club, what was, it was like a…
Participant: It was a, the LGBTQ services was an, was an actual office, like the school's office.
Interviewer: Center, center, student center, student center, basically, right? Is that…
Participant: Essentially, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. And that was like during the time too, that you had your abortion experience, that you were the chair of the health and wellness center?
Participant: Yeah. Yeah. I think I joined that right after.
Interviewer: Oh, okay. So did your abortion experience then, I mean, I'm assuming it kind of pushed you into this direction of like storytelling and being a part of the abortion world. But can you tell me more about that, the journey after your abortion experience and then your activism and work in the abortion world?
Participant: I had my abortion the same year that I was figuring out some mental health issues. It turns out I have OCD, what a concept. And that led to me accessing the health and wellness departments on campus quite a lot, which is part of why, when I decided that I wanted to join some extracurriculars, that I was so drawn to the health and wellness chair on the outreach advocacy board. Because I was like, well, I know about health and wellness and how much it freaking sucks and how access sucks, especially if you're trans now. It made me hyper aware of the places in which, not just our school, but society in general was failing us. And I thought, well, then I should, at the very least, if I have the ability to, I mean, I've already gone through this, I can be this chair and be an ear for people where they need it. And it actually turned into a really interesting career. So I joined… I had my abortion, I had all these meetings at the health and wellness because I was trying to figure out myself. Joined the board, and then I'm still part of these student organizations like Vox and Now. And Vox, Voices for Planned Parenthood decides to throw an abortion speak out. And it's been maybe a year since I've had my abortion at that point. And I've never really talked about it. I just kind of like did it and a couple friends knew and that was that. And then when they had the abortion speaker, I'm like, well, I'm definitely going to go, but I didn't think that I was actually going to have to talk. Well, not have to, but, I didn't think I'd go up there and actually share my story. I just wanted to be there. And then I listened to maybe three stories and I… this is going to sound really judgmental and I don't mean it this way at all. I just was really tired of hearing such depressing stories. Like, like abortion's not fun, but it… I think mine's funny. Um, I decided to get up and share my story. And I told everybody, hi, um, so I'm a great example of, uh, failing upwards. Uh, the condom broke, took a Plan B, that didn't work, did a medication abortion, listened to a lot of Rihanna's Man Down, and now here we are. And I made everybody in the room laugh. And it was the first time anybody broke... Everybody was so stoic in that space. It felt like a funeral. And it was the first time anybody broke and laughed and was cheered up. And it made me feel better about my abortion. And I think it made some other people feel better. So there was a sponsored trip to go to CLIP at Amherst in Massachusetts and I went and I did another one. And I just kept doing them. And I did one that was virtual. The 1 in 3 campaign did something and Renee Bricey Sherman <phonetic 57:45>, my sweet angel, saw me. We were Twitter mutuals at that point and went… before Twitter was a shit show. We were Twitter mutuals. I did it with her. I actually I might have a screenshot of me doing it actually, but uh she loved me and then she reached out to me at the time she was working for NNAF, the National Network of Abortion Funds, and she wanted to start a program that she was calling We Testify for abortion storytellers, because we had all been doing abortion storytelling, but it was all very fragmented. You know, we would do it for National Organization for Women, or we would do it for Planned Parenthood, but the PAC or something like that, or we'd get asked by different campaigns to talk. But, you know, they would expect us to drive ourselves and then not feed us and then put us up up front and be like, talk about this point specifically, talk about this point specifically, but then not actually care about us as people. And then articles would come out about us and we'd get online hate and death threats and it was really scary. So when Renee comes up with this program, she's like, no, I wanna protect y'all. We're gonna compensate you. We're gonna make sure that you have… it'll be per diem. If I fly you to something, I'm gonna make sure you get flied out or to make sure your food's covered. You'll get reimbursed for everything or we'll give you money ahead of time. And then we'll check in with you later and we'll do classes to show you like media training. This is how, what they're expecting when you do media. Let me help show you how to write an article. Let me show you how to collaborate. And three of you will be part of this article. And that happened… when did that program start? I wanna say like 2013, 2014 maybe is when I started working with her. I was part of the first cohort and I've never stopped. I was like, she's been doing cohorts and it's expanded. And now it's its own, it's not part of NF anymore. It's its own program. It's its own business at this point, but not really a business that has a financier. And she still reaches out and she had her book tour. I was part of her book. I went to see her. We took pictures. Like talking about my abortion to the level in which I do it now would have never happened if it hadn't been for We Testify and Renee because I was already within like a year of talking at abortion speak outs and talking at… God, so many rallies and doing interviews just to not be taken care of and to be discarded in such a way that I would not have continued doing it if I hadn't found that space. Oh, and the other thing that I love about We Testify is it's predominantly people of color. Like there's maybe two token white people and the two token white people know that they're the token white people, and they act right every time. So shout out, shout out to We Testify for making such a wonderful space for us to grow and to meet other people who've had abortions. And for me, I had never, I had definitely never met another trans person who had an abortion. And thanks to We Testify, I now know multiple. And I remember when Renee told me for the first time, like, oh, I found somebody for this next cohort who's trans, I cried. We were at a conference somewhere. I can't even remember if it was Atlanta or Vegas, But I, I remember I started crying. I was like, I don't know anybody else who's like me who's had to deal with this. And then that person is now like a very good friend of mine. That's my brother. Cause then they is still part of, We Testify. You may have seen him in some of, um, we did, uh, we did a documentary series together. So if you ever see him around, like, that's my, that's my best friend. I love him.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 61:16 ]<<<<
Interviewer: That's cute. So you were doing abortion, storytelling before We Testify with like, with bigger or like big at the time, like, um, reproductive rights organization. Is that correct?
Participant: Yeah. Yeah. And it was not a good experience.
Interviewer: Yeah. And I missed… were, were you sharing your story and sharing that you were in are trans then at the time?
Participant: Like, yes, absolutely. I'd never, I've never hidden parts of it. I think the only things that I haven't discussed was like, maybe some of the things about the partner I had at the time because he was a kid. Like we were young and we're older now and I don't want to tell his business like that, but yeah, I've always been very open about the fact that like I experienced getting a medication abortion as a trans person. And it sucked and it sucked for XYZ reasons and it sucked as a poor person and it sucked as a college student, it sucked as a brown person, it sucked as... I've never minced words about any of that. I've never been afraid to talk about that, but I think that's part of why I had such a bad experience before I found We Testify, or We Testify found me, let's be real.
Interviewer: I mean, how was also sharing your abortion experience within like trans communities too?
Participant: Oh, whenever I do that, it makes me cry. Good things always make me cry. Anytime I've done something visible about abortion and being trans, I would get emails or people will come up to me after, or I just… people are so nice. They're just like, oh, I'm trans. And I never knew that… I mean, I knew in theory that this was a thing that we would need, but that I didn't know anybody who actually needed it and did it. And just seeing that you're okay and you're doing all right and you're fine and makes me think that it's okay and I can get through this. And that stuff fucks me up. Cause you know, when I was going through the same thing, I didn't have anybody and it makes me feel really warm and fuzzy to… even though I don't know these people personally, that I'm giving them something that I also needed when I was going through the same thing. Tears me up.
Interviewer: I mean, even at the time of your experience, did you share that with people at the LGBT office about your abortion experience?
Participant: I can't recall. I think I was friends with the other people on the board, so they knew because they were my friends, but I don't think I shared it with the office as a whole. Just because, you know, if they saw me at an abortion speakup, that's one thing, but I wasn't talking about it with them. I didn't know them like that. I didn't trust them like that. Like, I wasn't going to tell them my business like that. I didn't know what their stance was exactly. And I remember that the person that they had, the guy that they had, like, supervising was a grad student. He sucked. We hated him. So I wasn't talking to him about, I wasn't talking to him about much, you know, like, uh-uh.
Interviewer: Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm just asking, too, because I remember being in the abortion world in 2011 as well, and being in queer and trans spaces, and there was not much conversation about abortion in those spaces or communities, because, I mean, yeah, I mean, there was still a disconnect that trans people needed abortions at that time.
Participant: I think, gosh, I'm trying to remember the first time like I even, I don't think I met any other trans folks who were even really talking about abortion till like… I think till I met Kazembe <phonetic 64:53>, which was probably not… mid 2010s. Yeah. It was, it was a very different time. It was a very different time. Just like even understanding gender in that way. Yeah, it was just very different. So I'm like not even that fresh that I didn't know that many people. I mean, it makes sense considering it's like, at the time we were all trying to figure out what transition even looked like. Like at that point, you didn't even, you didn't even understand transition to be anything that wasn't medical and wasn't binary. You know? So to even be like, oh, by the way, we also need abortion access. It's like, oh, what, huh? I'm, well, I won't for much longer. I'm working on getting this hysterectomy, you know? And it's like, that's not everybody's journey.
Interviewer: Right. Are you still looking into getting a hysterectomy?
Participant: I tried to get sterilized after my abortion and they told me, well, you're not over 30 and you haven't had a kid yet, so, no. And then now I'm in my 30s and I haven't… I haven't looked into it. I've thought about it, but I also just started testosterone last year after many an attempt. But Florida is hard. California, they're like, go for it, baby. I'm like, all right. And then Donald Trump got elected again and I went, oh no. My timing is so bad.
Interviewer: I mean, yeah, how was that experience for you? Like getting on T like 10 years plus after, yeah, confirming your transness.
Participant: It's maybe the third time that I've attempted to do it. But again, like when I first tried, when I first thought about it, I only understood it to be… and the access as well. The only way that anybody would understand that would be to identify as a binary trans person, which I just wasn't, and I knew that. So I just thought I couldn't. Then I believe… I puttered around with the idea again a couple of years later, but it wasn't accessible financially and I didn't have health insurance. This is a very like Florida thing. There's no, they didn't expand the Affordable Care Act. Hush kitty. They didn't expand the Affordable Care Act. So I didn't have health insurance and there was no way I could pay for it. So this is actually the third time that I've tried. And I was nervous, because again, I don't like, I don't like a lot of medical spaces. They make me uncomfortable. And I thought it was going to be another, oh, you have to see one person and get referred to another person and get referred to another person who's going to tell you, you can't do it unless you go back to the first person. Cause that's what it was like back in the day. But it actually was so easy. I started on a topical, I've been on it for almost a year now and it's been lovely. I, no regrets. I'm so hot now. Um, what? Me at 20 would not have understood that I could be this good looking. Um, and I'll be as big as we're good –
Interviewer: Biggest regret is being so sexy.
Participant: I'm like, wow. The takeaway is like, wow, I should have done this way sooner. Cause, um, again, just so good looking now. Like, it's ridiculous. I'm still waiting a little bit for my voice to do the full thing, but I'm, you know, I'm low dosing, so it's kind of intentional. It's a slow process. I just kind of want all the things that I want when I want them. This is where we're at. And then, of course, my doctor's telling me, if I go to the, I go to, there's a place, the Trans Wellness Center. And she's telling me, like, okay, well, here are what the permanent changes. This is, these are the things that even if you stop, you know, you seem familiar with this, so let me just make sure I say it. And listened to her. And I'm like, yep, those are all the things I want. And as soon as I get them, we can stop. We're good. I'm just gonna exist in this gray area is really all I want, where I have, I keep telling all my co workers and my customers, like 2025 is the year of Tdick. And I've decided that mainly because it's the year I got Tdick. I had Tdick last year, but I'm like, you know, we're in now. We're locked in now. And I, you know, for reference, I sell sex toys. I work for a sex toy manufacturer. So me talking about dick is very professional and normal. Let me just be clear. Like they're cool with me mentioning this and they're supportive of me mentioning this. It's appropriate. Before someone calls HR on me, let me make it clear, we do consider Tdick on a regular basis. But yeah, I really want, I was like, I really, really want Tdick. I'm very excited. Like, this is another moment, like how earlier I was saying, hey, you know, I was really attracted to fems, so I thought, this is what I need to look like, this is what's hot. In a small way, this was like a, I'm attracted to Tdick and little mustaches and butch people. I like androgyny and butchness to whatever degrees that is. Like there's a certain kind of femininity I love. There's a certain kind of masculinity that I love. There's a certain kind of question marks and confusion that I find very attractive. And eventually, you know, cause I was older than I was when I was trying to do the fem thing. I went, okay, it isn't just that you're attracted to it, I think this is what works for you. And so I pursued it. And then of course they're like, well, you're not gonna have a period. And I went, not a problem, baby. Papa's got that installation.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 70:31 ]<<<<
Interviewer: Nice. So this is your third time and you said when was the first time that you tried T? What year was that?
Participant: I didn't try it. I tried to get access to it.
Interviewer: You tried to get access.
Participant: Yeah, I never got my hands on any testosterone until now. Because it just wasn't, it was like, well, are you a man? No. Okay, goodbye. They don't, they didn't have low dosing, you know, they only did injectables and only be to a certain degree. And it's like, okay, well, you can do this for the rest of your life because you want to be a man and you want a full beard. And then we'll have to schedule your top surgery. And personally, I don't even want top surgery. I've got great boobs. I'm also in the little titty committee. So I don't have to worry about it quite as much as I think some other folks have. So I'm living. You know, we're doing great. We're just I'm trying to give preacher here. I'm trying to give <inaudible 71:23>. That's what I'm… if I could get my ears pointed tomorrow, I'd be doing it.
Interviewer: Well, then say what's that character's name from Romeo and Juliet, that's who you're trying to be.
Participant: Tybalt! Tybalt! I'm trying to transition to Tybalt. And so, you know, doctors were like, a man. I went not John Leguizamo, Tybalt. I'm not trying to be John Leguizamo. I'm trying to be Tybalt. This is a concept versus a person. You got to get it together. Come on. We're too old for this.
Interviewer: Yeah, but you said, so you said you tried for the first time in the 2010s to get on testosterone?
Participant: Yeah. 2010 and then I think it came up again, was it like 2018 or 2019 is when the idea came up again. And then lockdown happened, so like you know what? Not my main concern right now.
Interviewer: Right. Amazing. Yeah. I guess I wanted to also ask you about more of your work, too, because you did mention that you work, you said selling sex toys, at a sex shop.
Participant: I did do that. I've been seven years in the industry. I don't work for a retailer anymore. I work on the manufacturing side. I'm a trainer. I do all the training and educating for a big sex toy manufacturer based out of LA. So I travel a lot and I always travel with a big suitcase full of sex toys from this manufacturer. And I just visit all of our customers and tell them, hey, this is how you sell this. This is why you want to buy this for the stores that you own. This is why you want this in your catalogs. If I'm talking to a distributor, like this is what you want for your catalog for your customers. I just got back from a trade show in Vegas, you know, like it's… I live, I love my job. This is all, this is… career is so on the nose for me. Cause all I talk about is wieners and orgasming and it's like important that I do that, you know?
Interviewer: Right, and I don't know if it feels full circle for you, but going back to, you know, working at the LGBT office, were you talking about, I mean, health and wellness is encompassing, I'm assuming, to sex education as well, right?
Participant: Oh, 100%. When I was in college, I had an interdisciplinary studies major with a women's studies minor. It was like a women's studies track. They didn't have women's studies or gender studies as a major in my college at the time. So I did that and thought I was gonna go into public health. And I did work for Planned Parenthood. I did a fellowship for six months. The, you know, the non-profit life. If you don't get the grant that you were expecting, then there's no money for the position. So, didn't get kept on. But I did end up taking classes with the Department of Health. I was certified to do Clearview Rapid Testing, which is outdated now, but at the time, very important. I did a couple classes and like workshops about consent and you know like a bunch of different things in terms of sexual wellness. And then we fast forward, I move to LA, I get a job at a sex shop, turns out I'm really good at it. And then I get into corporate at the same company. And then I get laid off from that company but then I get picked up by a manufacturer. So now I'm on manufacturing side and absolutely living like like this… all the information that I was really trying to get to people to make their lives easier, even though it's not 100% the same information, you know, like me back in the day doing abortion storytelling and being like, I experienced this, maybe this will help you. Now I get to do it on a bigger scale, but about sexual wellness as a whole. And I can take all those things into account. I can take into account my identity as a trans person, I can take into account transition, I can take into account, okay, if you're somebody who's had an abortion, maybe, you know, you might have some issues or some trauma around it. You know, you can take that into account when you're getting toys. Or, you know, if you've had a child and then had an abortion, or if you've never had a child, like, what you choose in terms of toy matters based on your pelvic, you know, muscles and like where you're at. So I love that it's all kind of come full circle. Again, no pun intended, because it's all coming in my industry. If we're doing it right, if we're doing something right, we are all doing it right.
Interviewer: No straightness right here, also. Sorry, I'm just trying to put more puns in it. I don't know, yeah.
Participant: Right? But I'm living. And the company I work for now is a legacy company, it's been around over 50 years, so this is really, really what they do. And I've never felt so lovely.
Interviewer: That's awesome. I mean, did you wanna share, I don't know if there's anything else you wanted to share about your experiences so far? I feel like that might be a good place to end it. But I mean, how are you feeling right now? I know we've been recording for over an hour.
Participant: No, I feel good. I don't know if I have anything else to share. Is there anything else you wanted to know?
Interviewer: Well, I guess I wanted to ask you, like, what are your thoughts on like reproductive justice versus like reproductive rights and specifically trans justice and trans rights? If you had any thoughts?
Participant: Reproductive justice has always been the more inclusive of the two, that's period, done. I personally have only struggled a bit in terms… like, and going into these pro-choice spaces specifically, you start to see, again, the difference between being pro-choice and pro-abortion. Especially because a lot of the people in these spaces have never needed to access an abortion themselves. And/or are predominantly cisgender white women. So working in those public health spaces was like, okay, you're doing a lot of talking, you're taking up a lot of space, but you don't actually know what the fuck it feels like to be confronted with this at a time in which you're really needing care, and in some cases, desperate. So I don't, I don't like hearing from those people. But I do love hearing from women of color. And whenever I go to something that is like specifically reproductive justice space, of course, it centers women of color. And the only thing that I've experienced there that can be a bit of a struggle, but I understand it, is that using gender neutral language when talking about abortion with cisgender women in general has been very difficult. Like they generally, this is obviously overarching general, because obviously I've met people in my life that get this, especially in 2025, to say they or pregnant people, rather than women, especially for women of color, have been difficult. It's been expressed to me that, you know, as a person of color, especially black women, not being given the space to be people, to be women, right? It like, to say people instead of woman takes away a bit for them. And I'm like, that makes sense. And I can't argue with that. So if you need to say what you need to say, that's great. You say it how you need to say it when you're talking about you. When I'm talking about me, I'm gonna talk about it the way I need to talk about it. But um, I'm really I'm all here for the most radical of people. Like this is again why I like Rene so much because he's like no I'm pro-abortion you get an abortion… Oprah with the <inaudible 78:47>. You get an abortion, you get an abortion. You get whatever you want for whatever reason, it doesn't matter. You you need an abortion, you want to get an abortion you should have access to it, period.
Interviewer: So you're pro-abortion?
Participant: Yeah very much so. I like refer to my quote in Rene's, in Rene's book where I just say six times in a row, like abortions are bad bitch behavior. I'm gonna get a tattoo as a tramp vamp.
Interviewer: Pro-abortion, got it.
Participant: Absolutely.
Interviewer: Yeah, I've been pro-abortion for a while now and I'm not going back, I'm never going back, so.
Participant: As you shouldn't.
Interviewer: I mean, thank you so much, Jack. I'm gonna stop the recording right now, if that's okay, unless you have anything else you want to you want to finish or share.
Participant: That was it. I guess I didn't say what my pronouns were at the beginning. My bad. Their, they them.
Interviewer: OK. Yeah. Awesome. OK. Thank you so much. I'm going to stop recording.
Participant: OK.