Oliver Hall
-
Interviewer: That's pretty big. Okay, so I'm gonna just do a little introduction. So my name is Vrindavani, and I'll be having a conversation with Oliver Hall for the Trans Abortion Oral Histories Project. Today is Monday, June 3rd, and this conversation is taking place virtually. So hello, Oliver.
Participant: Hey.
Interviewer: Yeah, thanks again for being part of this project. I guess maybe we could start with and talk a little bit about yourself. Like tell me a little bit about who you are and a little bit about your background.
Participant: Yeah, my name is Oliver Hall. I'm 29, I live in Louisville, Kentucky. I use they, them pronouns. I'm a non-binary transmasculine person. And I run a trans health program alongside an abortion fund at the Kentucky Health Justice Network. I've lived in Kentucky my whole life. I don't know what all to include here.
Interviewer: I mean, yeah, I mean however else you want to include like maybe you want to tell me more about what was it like growing up in Kentucky?
Participant: Sure, yeah. I also forgot to mention that I have diabetes which is like always relevant to everything in my life. But growing up in Kentucky was okay. I don't think a lot of the… like any of the issues I had in childhood were really attributable to like being in Kentucky. I think most of the issues I had in childhood were like how the world works with like transphobia and fatphobia and capitalism. So I think Kentucky all in all is pretty all right. I also live in Louisville which is one of the biggest cities in Kentucky. It's like one of the more like progressive cities. So I mean I've liked Kentucky. I think it's nice that we have a real diversity of cultures across the state. Different regions of the state feel like entirely different parts of the country. And we have a lot of really cool geographical aspects. There are a lot of caves in Kentucky and a lot of mountains. So there's there's some geographic diversity that is that is pretty cool to explore.
Interviewer: Yeah that sounds that sounds nice. Yeah, so I guess I also wanted to ask you then more about like how you came into your your gender growing up in Kentucky and how that really affirmed your work as in the trans health program.
Participant: Yeah, absolutely. So I think, I don't know, looking back it seems really obvious, but I didn't know about the concept of being trans until I was in high school. So I just kind of felt uncomfortable a lot before then, and I didn't really understand why. I also got like bullied in kind of a transphobic way without understanding that's what people were doing or like why they were saying that because I didn't understand. So I I think honestly like I… there weren't even any trans people at my high school. I like got on the internet when I was in high school and eventually like had a Tumblr where I made friends and I made a friend who was trans and that's how I learned that like that was an option. And I like I resonated and deeply repressed that because I had already been being bullied for being trans without knowing that I was trans. So I was like I can't do this. Like it's everything is gonna get a lot worse. So I just kind of repressed that until I was honestly later in college and started dating another trans person and I was like, okay, maybe maybe it's time I can like do something. Perhaps this is not sustainable in the long term. And I initially, I mean I still pretty much… I say like I feel like my gender has changed a lot over the past like eight years that I've been out, but honestly like I still describe myself the same way, just I didn't understand. Even when I came out, I didn't understand that I was experiencing dysphoria, like for real. I was just like, oh, I can be trans without dysphoria. That's me. I don't have dysphoria. And came to realize that I did and that's why I was dissociating. It's part of why I was dissociating so much, like up until that point, was I didn't really feel connected to my body. Which is also complicated because I have been fat my whole life and I assumed like I was having internalized fatphobia and that's why I was uncomfortable with my body. So it just took a long time to parse through what was like societal shit and what was me wanting to like change to feel more, you know, in alignment with myself.
Interviewer: So your first kind of interaction with other trans folks or trans community was Tumblr?
Participant: Yeah yep
Interviewer: Yeah, I mean Tumblr was a is a very important place for a lot of us finding –
Participant: Oh yeah absolutely.
Interviewer: How did that… building that <inaudible 6:55> like offline to like in physical <inaudible 7:02>.
Participant: Yeah um honestly, I wouldn't say initially that it did. I think it just kind of gave me a reprieve from, you know, what I was experiencing in my, like, daily life. Just, like, having people that I could talk to even if it was on, if it was online. And then I honestly, like, I feel like that might have changed for me when like went to college initially like except for the fact that I pretty immediately entered a relationship that was very bad for me and isolated me more. But as soon as I came out of that I was like, oh, they're… like I can be around people. I don't know, I had social anxiety too, so I didn't really trust in my ability to like make friends. But after that I was like, oh, like there are like people who kind of like I share experiences with that are around me. I was also like doing like labor organizing at the time but was just doing it like not embodied and not like seeing it as, I don't know, like like I was doing something and being in community with people. But after that point I, yeah, I felt like I was able to connect with people a lot more. And that's yeah inevitably when I was like, oh, okay, like yeah I have… I have a gender for sure. Like there are people around me who are who are trans and I relate to them a lot and we have similar experiences. So perhaps that's something I should like dig a little bit deeper on.
Interviewer: Tell me more about how you got started <inaudible 8:56>. It was this like in college or after college?
Participant: Yeah, it was in college. Honestly, I don't know how to say this. I I had like… I was interested in like political theory as a child. Like all I could read was nonfiction. I could not get through a like a fiction book for any reason. So I came into college with a pretty like formed set of beliefs And there was a group on campus that was called Cards United Against Sweatshops and they were doing like international solidarity campaigns with union organizers in Bangladesh. And I was just like, yeah, this is something I need to be involved with. And I mean, I was involved my whole four years of college and we got some like good wins in that time. We raised the wage for campus workers and we did get our university to like cut its ties with the specific companies that were being targeted that were operating out of Bangladesh. So, yeah. Yeah. That was a pretty, like, pretty important part of, I don't know, me developing as a young person.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 10:30 ]<<<<
Interviewer: Yeah, <inaudible 10:34>. Sounds like it really grounded you for organizing your...
Participant: Thank you. Thank you.
Interviewer: Yeah, I mean, I guess I have, I'm wondering about how that also, if that was like a trajectory to do other types of like organizing effort or work around activism and advocacy?
Participant: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think… I mean, it was pretty much as, as soon as I like, came out as trans, I was, I was still doing that work and I was noticing the other things that people around me were experiencing and eventually things I was also experiencing. Particularly, I mean, I had my abortion when I was 19, so that was happening for me, but I wasn't really acknowledging it until later in college. And I was also having trouble finding doctors that were treating me appropriately, and that was an issue. And I saw everyone around me was kind of having the same issues. And so that's what led me to try to figure out what work people were already doing and what role I could have in furthering work for abortion access and for <inaudible 12:03> access to health care as a whole.
Interviewer: So your experience with abortion and then with labor organizing in college really propelled you to do more work centering abortion access?
Participant: Yes, yeah, absolutely.
Interviewer: And you want to share more about your experience with abortion? Is this before you like quote-unquote officially came out as trans?
Participant: Yeah, yeah, no it was definitely before I came out. I was like… I've been like gender non-conforming my whole life, which is why I was like being bullied for being trans before I knew that's what was happening. So I don't know. It was kind of a weird experience. We only had, we had… I'm trying to remember. We had two clinics in the state when I was 19. And the one that was in Louisville was EMW Women's Surgical Center. And I just like on a base level, even not having come out, I was just like I don't like… people are treating me weird because of how I look. Like I don't want to go here, I think that's not gonna be fun for me. That's not gonna be a positive experience. And I also didn't want to tell anyone. I felt like, even though I didn't think abortion was like a bad thing, it was something I I like I think I felt more shame around the people around me knowing I was like having like sex with a cis man at the time because I felt like they were going to judge me for that, which I don't think is true and, upon reflection. And I was like out as bisexual at the time so it's not like it would have been a shock. But I just like felt that and so I ended up self-managing my abortion. And at the time I didn't know like that abortion pills were a thing so I ended up trying every everything I could find online. Which mainly was taking in a deranged amount of vitamin C and caffeine every day and like trying to massage my uterus to like encourage my uterine lining to shed. And I ended up doing that for about a week. And I did eventually like successfully abort the the fetus toward the end of the week. And I was just… I was really relieved because I was about to give up. I was like I'm gonna have to tell someone and figure it out like if this doesn't work because there's only so much I can do. But I didn't… yeah I really I really really felt opposed to telling anyone at the time and so I was just trying to do everything I could on my own. And I did… I was like I don't know, it was it felt isolating like because I was in… I was in some pain throughout that week and I didn't feel like I could even be honest about that. But I don't know, it was definitely the right decision for me at the time, at least not going to our local clinic. Because I know in retrospect that they… like I know after the fact that I would have had a bad experience probably, just based on the experience of other like trans and gender non-conforming people who went there. But… it was not an awesome week but I felt I felt extremely relieved. And I also… like it took me a while to be like that I really shouldn't have felt that way but like I understand why I felt that way and why other people felt that way. And particularly about like the, you know, not being able to talk to people to figure out if I could pull people together to get funding, not knowing abortion funds existed at the time either, and thinking about not feeling like the local clinic was going to treat me appropriately. I eventually was like, that's kind of fucked up. Like, that's not just like my individual experience. There are probably a lot of people who had similar experiences, and we should really do something about that.
Interviewer: So you were isolated from the medical care for your abortion experience and but also isolated from <inaudible 17:05> like you said you didn't reach out to anybody during this time?
Participant: Yeah I yeah I felt I at least like… I felt like I couldn't at the time. Like in retrospect, I am sure there had to be someone that would have been a good person to talk to, but at the time I was just so overwhelmed that I just didn't didn't feel like there was anyone who would be able to help.
Interviewer: Okay so you didn't… so you were basically alone throughout this process?
Participant: Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, that's that's an awful experience to go through but amazing that you were able to have a complete abortion on on your own.
Participant: Yes, yeah. Since I've learned more as an adult, I'm sure I'm… I mean as an adult, I was technically an adult, but like as a full adult, like I I'm like, wow, I suppose luck was was really on my side. Because a lot of people try the exact same things I did and don't have an abortion.
Interviewer: Yeah, exactly. You said you felt like shame though, like you've been sharing it within like, like your queer friends about your experience at that time?
Participant: Yeah, I think, and I don't, I don't know that like, the people I was around at the time did anything to prompt me to feel that way. I think mostly I like I was feeling the after effects of like how… like I was I was out as bi when I was in high school, but because I was like gender non-conforming I was like pretty masculine presenting. People were really weird about that. And most people… like It seems strange to say in the day we live in, in 2024, but people didn't believe me. People were like, there's no way on earth that's true. Like, you are a lesbian. And I was like, okay. And so I just kind of internalized that, and I was like, okay, people are gonna treat me weird if they know I'm actually having sex with cis men. Because people have treated me weird in the past. So I don't think it was even reflective of the people I was around. More so just like what I had already heard and seen up until that point.
Interviewer: Like the societal pressures within our own like community, the boundaries of of certain identities and that?
Participant: Yeah, absolutely.
Interviewer: So that was like 10 years ago then that you had your abortion, okay.
Participant: Yeah.
Interviewer: How I mean what's… how are you reflecting on that time? How like um obviously you're sharing your experience with me, but um how has like your identity or your reflection of your abortion <inaudible 20:10>?
Participant: Yeah um I don't think I realized that I was also… and this is going into like why I didn't feel like I could talk to people, but I don't think I realized I was having like dysphoria around the fact that I had like the ability to become pregnant. Like I just felt… I was like I think… I mean because I had never been pregnant in the past I was just like this is how everyone feels when they are pregnant and they don't want to be. Which that too, but there there was like definitely some… I felt like I was extra not connected to my body and I really just needed to move on as quickly as possible. Which, upon reflection, saying that now is probably another reason I didn't want to tell anyone, because then I would have to like talk, which would be like acknowledging that it was happening. That's the, I don't know, that's the main thing I've gotten in retrospect. That and like, wow, I really wish I had known about abortion pills, and I really wish I had known about abortion funds at the time because I think I would have had a pretty different experience.
Interviewer: So did your abortion experience kind of I don't <inaudible 21:31> propel you into like more dysphoria or disconnection with your body or did that or like did it have an impact on that directly?
Participant: I mean I think having the abortion had a positive impact in that I no longer… I wouldn't no longer was pregnant and the pregnancy was what was causing the dysphoria. Like I'm sure at the time I felt upset about the abortion as well, but like the pregnancy was the real issue.
Interviewer: So you had like a euphoria, after which a lot which a majority of people who have abortions have that sense of relief.
Participant: Yes, yeah relief. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah, I guess so so you had this experience at 19. Then did you start doing like abortion… like when did you start actually doing like abortion access?
Participant: Not until later, like my last year in college. I actually applied to do what used to be called like the <inaudible 22:39> the Reproductive Rights Activists Service Corps internship I think it's now called collective rising. But it's an internship program that places people at different RJ orgs across the country for a summer, and you do a paid internship there. And I ended up staying here and doing mine at Kentucky Health Justice Network. And I mean, my main goal at the time was just starting a trans health program, because they done like trans health research, and I was like okay we can address some of these barriers. Let me come with a proposal for like a program we can start. And then I was kind of natural… like having that program alongside an abortion fund where we could you know help people accessing gender-affirming care and help people accessing abortion in tandem was was really like natural and felt very cohesive and helped me… I don't know at the time I didn't I didn't even… when I was first there think like there was anything to be done about the like gendered aspects of abortion that made it feel like hard for me. But like through being there and through, you know, talking to the people I was working with at the time, I started to, like, think about how we could better, like, better inform other abortion funds and better inform clinics so that they're… so that trans people who are going there or trans people who are seeking support, could have a more positive experience.
Interviewer: Were you connected with other trans and gender non-conforming folks around this issue of abortion at the time? Or did you like meet folks like after your experience too?
Participant: Yeah so not anyone like locally at the time. I was I think… I was the only trans… I don't think there were any trans people on <inaudible 24:58> at the time. And I was the like… even after my internship I was the only trans staff member. But I did like… through that in the first couple… well there were there were other trans people in my cohort. So I was like connected with other trans people doing RJ work broadly at… in other parts of the country. And so I honestly at this point don't remember like if we talked about those things at all. I eventually ended up, just like through talking to people at like different organizations, I eventually like found a lot of trans people at other organizations and other like abortion funds who were who were trans and were doing abortion access work. But it took me, I don't know, it took me a little bit, to be honest. And that's why… that's probably part of why I wasn't envisioning like what else could be done is I didn't see other people who were doing that at the time. Not that they weren't doing that, I just wasn't connected and, you know, didn't understand what was already happening.
Interviewer: So how, so how are your ideas about gender and <inaudible 26:20> at the time? Like if you were really around, like the only person around kind of doing that work or that you… contact with like your thoughts about being a trans person experiencing abortion and how that's not really talked about? This is like what like what eight years ago or seven? I'm trying to figure out the timeline sorry.
Participant: Um that would have been like seven years ago. Yeah um it I don't know I I think… I'm actually remembering a little bit more now and I remember being annoyed. I'm thinking specifically, like, I felt like I had to, like, people were using, like… and I know it's, like, sounds small, but, like, people were using so much, like, excessive gendered language that it felt like I had to constantly disclose that I had an abortion to, like, get people to understand that, like, trans people had abortions. Like, I could say it and people didn't listen until I was like, no, I did and the things… like what you're doing right now negatively impacted my experience. I remember like specifically having having that happen with like an employee at our like local Planned Parenthood because I was… I think at the time I was just dropping off like materials for the trans health program for them to have in their waiting room. And I don't know I think she just said something kind of not not very good and I just felt angry that I felt like I kept having to do that. And I was like… I think that's what kind of led me to try to find other people because I was like do other people feel like they have to constantly do this? And at the time the answer was definitely yes. I'm really, I feel really happy and grateful for how much, like, for all that's left to be done. Like, at least most people who do abortion access work understand that trans people have abortions at this point. But in like 2016 and 2017 even, that did not feel like the case.
Interviewer: So like every space that you're in was very centering cisgender women.
Participant: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Interviewer: I mean, do you feel like that has changed now, like almost 10 years later? Or like, what are your thoughts about that?
Participant: Yeah, I mean, I think it's different in different spaces. So I think some places it hasn't changed a lot, but in a lot of the spaces that I would even want to be in, it has. At least among people who do direct service abortion work rather than like policy work. Like abortion doulas and people who volunteer work at abortion funds. I feel like it's definitely changed around those folks. And that's what feels more important to me at least anyway. So I feel positively about that.
Interviewer: Can you talk about like the work that you're doing with the <inaudible 29:47>
Participant: Yeah, like, talk about the present?
Interviewer: Yeah, sorry.
Participant: Yeah. So, the, I directed trans health program and mainly what we do is provide direct services for trans folks in Kentucky who are needing to access gender-affirming care. So, we help people with health care navigation and insurance navigation. So helping them figure out, you know, where the transcompetent providers in their area are, helping them figure out how to navigate insurance coverage for gender-affirming care, how to do appeals if they get a denial, like, especially for gender-affirming surgery. And also just kind of, like, talking people through what they might expect at their appointments. And helping them troubleshoot, like, advocating for themselves if they anticipate resistance, because that still, like, happens quite a bit. So talking people through that. And then also providing funding. So we give people money for, like, co-pays for gender-affirming care. We give people gas money. We also buy people gender-affirming items like binders, gaffes, packers, breast forms, things like that. And we also do a surgical grant. So like once a quarter we give a like a grant to a trans Kentuckian who's trying to access gender-affirming surgery. We also do educational events. So we usually like bring people in to do like some kind of like either like a skill based training or just like something that's like fun for people. Like we had someone come in and do like gender-affirming makeup tutorials. We had someone last month come in and talk about like health… like moving toward like healthy masculinity and like… so I'm trying to figure out what else. We ended up having to do like some like legislative advocacy just because there's no one else. There's not another like trans-led program in the state, and we get a lot of anti-trans laws, so we've had to engage in that way and also do some like administrative advocacy. We still have like a Medicaid exclusion on gender-affirming surgery right now. So like trying to work on all of the things that are negatively impacting the people we're serving in whatever way we can. I forgot to mention that with like the funding, we also have an emergency fund. So we give people, it's usually funding for like emergency housing or food. Just like people who are in an urgent situation, just trying to get them money as quickly as possible to help them move toward a place of stability.
Interviewer: Were you in like the starting up of that of that program or you kind of or did you like kind of come in…
Participant: No, I started the program as an intern. It was it was very different at the time. We were going with people in person to their appointments at the at the start because it seemed like that was what people needed at the time. I figured out like over time that's not actually what most people needed from us, so we ended up stopping doing that and kind of focusing on doing the more of like the navigation. We also do like transition mapping. So that's usually with people who have like recently discovered their trans identity or recently discovered at least that they want to pursue some type of medical transition. We help them like think through, you know, what's the most important to them, figure out like the order they might want to do things and help make a plan for how they can get there.
Interviewer: That sounds like necessary work that needs to be done like every everywhere.
Participant: Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay, how do y'all get your funding for abortion?
Participant: Oh, there's an abortion fund like KHJN. KHJN actually started just as an abortion fund, so there's the trans health program and we have an abortion support program, both within the Kentucky Health Justice Network.
Interviewer: Okay, okay. Okay. So, so you've been doing like advocacy, like around the state. Like what is, what is like the legislative landscape of like abortion access in Kentucky currently? How's that like affecting your work?
Participant: Yeah. So we, we had a trigger law. So since Dobbs, we've had a total abortion ban. So, I mean, honestly, our abortion support director would probably have more to say about how that's affected, but I know we are having to send… like, we're obviously having to send folks out of state. So there's been a huge shift from, you know, providing people just like a ride to the clinic in Louisville from other parts of the state, compared to like, okay, now someone has to drive either to, you know, Cincinnati or they have to drive to Illinois, which is a huge lift for volunteers especially. And that's most of the transportation. Transportation is done by volunteers, so that's had to be a huge adjustment. And, you know, with that, like moving funds to accommodate travel and, you know, other practical barriers people are experiencing as opposed to like the appointment funding being the main barrier.
Interviewer: Wow, so I'm thinking about this and your experience with abortion. How do you think you would have navigated like current type of abortion with your own experience?
Participant: Yeah. Um, honestly, I think it's, um, I mean, if I knew what I knew now, I still would have self-managed my abortion for sure. I just would have done so like with abortion pills. And I, I probably, yeah. Other than that, like, I, I mean… I would have obviously not told people about that because that wouldn't have been legal. But, so, I honestly don't think, other than that, it would have been that different just because I felt for me it wasn't making a difference at the time that abortion was legal in Kentucky. It didn't feel accessible to me anyway. So I honestly think I would have had a pretty similar experience.
Interviewer: And are you doing, like, direct support, too, for other trans folks accessing abortion?
Participant: Yeah. It is, like, rare that someone contacts us, like, who is getting an abortion, but it does happen. In that case, yeah, we, like, still, like… I don't know, it's tough to conceptualize because we also have an abortion fund, but, like, abortion is also gender-affirming care, so I'm, like, providing them support in that way. And like potentially sometimes funding, but also usually, you know, connecting them to make sure they're getting help with transportation from the abortion fund as well.
Interviewer: Can you talk more about, um, what thoughts are about all abortion and gender-affirming care?
Participant: Yeah. I mean, I think for me, it was definitely gender affirming care. Um, like upon reflection, understanding why I was feeling so particularly upset about being pregnant. That was like inducing dysphoria for me. And so what I what I needed to resolve my dysphoria was was an abortion. Staying pregnant was going to exacerbate my dysphoria in a really like critical and threatening way. And so yeah, that was the gender-affirming care I needed at the time. And I've learned since then that's like the experience of a lot of trans folks who feel any kind of like disconnection from you know the processes of being pregnant. So yeah I mean I just think it's… for a lot of people pregnancy can be dysphoria inducing for a variety of reasons. And so makes sense that abortion would be the the gender-affirming care there.
Interviewer: Like I I guess I just wanted to ask you, like, what are your thoughts about taking gender, like, out of abortion? Is that a possibility, or helpful, or what are your thoughts about it being so wrapped up in gender?
>>>>[ Audio Time: 39:49 ]<<<<
Participant: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think that creates, that does create another barrier for people. It did, it did for me, for sure. And I think any… like, yeah, I do feel like, you know, removing gender from a lot of health care experiences is a net positive for sure. And I do think it's possible. I think, like, the timeline is more of the question there. But obviously, like, more even clinics, which I consider to be, like, on the whole more conservative than like like abortion funds or abortion doulas or people who are doing like that kind of direct support work. But even you know clinics, I felt like I feel like a lot of them have moved that direction as well. So I feel a lot of hope there for sure.
Interviewer: I mean do you have any thoughts about even talk a lot about gender but I mean what about like even sexuality and how that impacts like folks as well <inaudible 40:59> abortion experience.
Participant: Yeah yeah. Yeah absolutely. I think I don't know it feels like… so some things feel exactly the same as like when I was having my abortion, and some things feel so incredibly different. I feel like people have definitely moved a little more toward disconnecting gender and sexuality. It felt like at the time they were very, very, very, like, critically linked, even in my head, like, knowing they weren't. Like, it felt like that that was the perception of everyone. And so that's what it was societally. No, go ahead.
Interviewer: I was gonna ask, how is your perception of gender and sexuality in your experience?
Participant: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't know. At the time, like, it It felt weird because it felt like I had tried so hard to get people to believe that I was bisexual, and then I was like, oh no. People had such a weird adverse reaction to that, they're going to treat me worse. People are going to treat me weirdly. And I think, I don't know, I did have a lot of friends at the time who were lesbians and were, like, weird about people having sex with men, and I think that having sex with cis men especially, and I think that definitely informed my experience. I like to hope we've moved kind of further from that, but at the time it felt like, I don't know, it felt like that was just another disconnect. People expect your your your gender and your or your gender presentation even in your sexuality to be aligned and if there's misalignment that's another place where people are going to treat you badly.
Interviewer: So were you getting like shame around like being bisexual and then also this assumption that you are a lesbian too at that time? Like was it like shame on all kind of sexual identity fronts or?
Participant: Oh, yeah. No. Yeah for sure and it feels so strange like now because it that at least, at least in my like local community that feels like something that is almost inconceivable now. But that, yeah, that that's that definitely was my experience at the time.
Interviewer: But like your, your abortion experience didn't really affirm like your bisexual identity at the time.
Participant: No, it… yeah, I was just so focused, I was like, focused on moving on and forgetting it at the time. So I wasn't even thinking of it that way.
Interviewer: How do you you how do you identify now? How what is like your sexual identity now? And how is that… has it changed since your abortion?
Participant: I'm still bisexual. I don't know. I don't think my abortion necessarily changed that for me. I think I understand my sexuality better and differently since coming out, and especially since alleviating some of my dysphoria. And you know figuring out… I don't know, like I'm trying to figure out how to say this. Like figuring out different ways to like have sex that were not like all I all I knew at that time as a 19 year old. So it's definitely changed. But yeah, no, I still identify the same way.
Interviewer: Can you talk to me more about your bisexual identity and how you understand that aligned with your with your gender identity?
Participant: Yeah before… yeah before I realized I was trans, like I I knew I was bisexual because I just I knew the people I was attracted to. But I I didn't understand myself in that. It was like I'm attracted to different genders but it's completely disconnected from me. And so I was not, I don't know, I didn't feel particularly like compelled to like have sex or have relationships really because… I mean I did but I like didn't feel particularly compelled by it because I wasn't like seeing myself in that because I was like I'm not supposed to be with any gender. Like as I was understanding myself as a girl I was like it does it just doesn't work. And so figuring out that I was not a girl and I could be with people in different ways. Obviously girls can be with people in different ways also, but like understanding I could view myself differently in in those relationships and in those interactions made made them more appealing, made me like feel more strongly I guess about my sexuality as a whole.
Interviewer: For sure. That's really interesting. I also want to do like kind of like time check <inaudible 46:53> I know that hour, but do you have time or how are you feeling about this process currently?
Participant: I feel fine, and I still have time. I don't have anything until 4:30, I believe.
Interviewer: Okay, so 40 minutes. Sorry, we're time different, so just like, okay, what's 4:30? Okay.
Participant: That's 40 minutes. Yeah, that's 40 minutes from now, for sure.
Interviewer: Okay, cool. Um, I guess so like reflecting back then like <inaudible 47:27> an experience. Yes, I had like, or did you want to add anything regarding like thinking about your sexuality then. And you're like now, or like parallels are there about that.
Participant: I don't think so, honestly.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. So I was just going to like shift a little bit to the asking questions like regarding like your political work that you do then.
Participant: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, of course.
Interviewer: Um, so, like, what are your thoughts then on abortion, like reproductive justice versus like reproductive rights? Because I know you also on like legislative like advocacy, um, obviously regarding the shape of trans care and abortion care in Kentucky?
Participant: Yeah. Yeah, I honestly like any kind of legislative advocacy that I do, I do reluctantly because I don't… I feel like especially in Kentucky, that's where we're able to have as big of an impact. As opposed to like getting people's like direct needs met. I think… I mean, in an ideal world, like, perhaps if we could do something, like, get something positive done, like, legislatively in Kentucky, that would be, you know, a more productive use of time, but I don't know. I feel like it's—because I think you can, like, move toward reproductive justice goals as opposed to, like, reproductive rights goals, like, legislatively. It's depending on, like, where you are and, like, what your goal is. But it doesn't feel possible, at least with our, you know, our current government in Kentucky. Trying to figure out what I was even saying there. I mean, I think, I mean, RJ as a whole, like, I was not moved by the, like, reproductive rights movement. Finding out about reproductive justice is what, like, encouraged me to, like, pursue that internship to begin with. Because I was like, wow, this is a way to see all of these things that are affecting people. Affecting people's birthing experiences, affecting people's, like, abortion experiences, affecting people's healthcare experiences as a whole. Like, understand that as, like, one, like, one cohesive issue to be addressed, rather than, like, you know, fragments. And only addressing, you know, the… I mean, generally only addressing, like, abortion access as, or the, like, right to have an abortion, the like, legal right to have an abortion, as opposed to, like, all of these other things that are preventing people from exercising bodily autonomy. And so, yeah, I mean, I just felt like that's where it's at. This is what we, like, have to do. And this is, you know, this is a movement where people will understand that, like, abortion is gender-affirming care, and people will understand why we want to have a trans health program work alongside an abortion fund. And so it was just kind of really formative for me to understand that people had been doing that work for so long, and seeing what people have been able to do in the reproductive justice movement, and where we could go.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 51:23 ]<<<<
Interviewer: How do you define <inaudible 51:27> I know you kind of said it a little bit in what you just shared, but do you have a working definition, something that resonates with you?
Participant: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I do usually just default to the sister song definition. I've also, like, so the right to have children, the right to not have children, and the right to parent our children in safe and healthy environments. And there was also, like, Loretta Ross. Loretta Ross actually did the, like, training at the internship I did. And so that's where I, like, learned most of what I, like, knew at the beginning about reproductive justice. And she also added, like, a fourth pillar, which was, like, gender and sexual freedom as well, which I thought was interesting. And I, like… with or without that pillar, I still feel like gender-affirming care is a part of reproductive justice as well. But, you know, anything that's impeding someone's ability to, you know, exercise bodily autonomy, I think, is reproductive justice. So, you know, that includes housing justice, economic justice, everything. It includes pretty much everything. It's just a matter of, like, addressing it through that lens.
Interviewer: <inaudible 52:59>, and that training, or that you did with the collective rising, you said?
Participant: Yeah.
Interviewer: When did that occur? Is that training again?
Participant: That was the summer of 2016.
Interviewer: Okay, so almost 10 years ago, like years ago.
Participant: Yep.
Interviewer: Wow. Um, that's, that's amazing. Yeah, like, yeah, people back to justice. And it's on on the work of black women, on Loretta Ross. So yeah, it's really important. I guess I wanted to ask because you brought up that other tenet that Loretta Ross kind of included to encompass reproductive justice. Like, is there any other… you said housing justice, economic justice, but is could there be like a reproductive justice, like, civically centered like trans and gender nonconforming folks or for an expansion of it?
Participant: Oh yeah, I mean I think using, I think those tenets are so applicable to so many different issues that people are facing. So thinking through how trans people are impacted in all those ways I think makes a lot of sense. And that's something, like, when we've, like, since done… KHAN has done, like, RJ 101 trainings for, like, folks locally to, like, make sure people, like, know that, that, like, that's a framework and that's an option that we're working through. And a lot of times I will, like, do that specifically as we're, like, talking about the tenets. Like point out the ways that, you know, trans people are denied the right to have children, or the way that trans people are denied the right to parent their children in safe and healthy environments, and talk about things that way, just as, you know, another group that's, like, facing additional barriers.
Interviewer: Yeah, you talked about also effective rights is kind of like fragmented, too, and that's why you still are aligned with the justice values framework. How, like, what are your thoughts, then, of working within state legislation, too, that also fragments, like, our rights really not only is working to <inaudible 55:42> or violate and harm trans people, but fragment our experiences and identities as well.
Participant: Yeah, it's disheartening, for sure. I think, honestly, I would encounter that more if I were in a state where we could get some wins, because I see that happening in other states. Like getting some marginal win that might help people who—might help trans people who are, you know, having a particular experience or, you know, perhaps have, like, more privilege within the trans community. But in Kentucky, like, it feels like, because we're not getting anything, like, positive regardless, like, it's less fragmented. Like, we're pretty much all on the same page about what needs to be done. I think, if anything, I'm trying to figure out how to say… I don't know. I mean, I think even in opposing negative legislation, there's always a group that gets left behind. And that's, like, something I've thought of when we've… like, I was just on a panel with, like, some lawyers, some of which work on abortion access work and some of which work on, like, the gender-affirming care bans. And there's a big, like, issue with regard to, like, youth access, because the gender-affirming… people working on gender-affirming care bans are relying so heavily on a parental rights, framework. Like, parents should have the right to get gender-affirming care for their child. Whereas with abortion access work, a lot of times people are trying to get youth access to abortion care without their parents' consent. And so when we're relying on that narrative of, you know, enshrining parental rights in precedent, we're further marginalizing those people who can't, whose parents are not supportive, and those people are already additionally vulnerable. So, like, thinking of that as another way that things get fragmented. I'm not sure if that answers the question. I kind of got off a little bit.
Interviewer: No, it's okay. Yeah, you answered. I guess I just like, want to know like, yeah, you like your thoughts about like, working within state legislation <inaudible 58:43> designed to harm and extract from our communities. It's a continual fight. I guess I wanted more like your thoughts because of so much like transness and abortion is like wrapped up in the state as like obviously <inaudible 59:08> our experience.
Participant: Yeah, um, I mean, I feel like I've probably already said this but yeah, I mean it's it feels kind of miserable and at a lot of points counterproductive. It's something, like, you have to, like, continually, like, reevaluate, you know, how you're spending your time. And I think, like, there are points at which, like, it makes sense and is important for us to, like, engage that way. Like, you know, if Kentucky tried to put forth, like, an aid-in-a-bed provision for abortion care, that would be really important for us to try to engage with, because that's going to negatively impact people who need, like, people to assist them getting out of the state. That's going to negatively impact people who need more community support, specifically. So I think you just have to continually make those evaluations and make sure you're not just getting caught up in that. Because if you, I don't know, if you spend too much time with state legislators, I feel like you kind of lose a little bit of perspective and lose sight of what you're trying to do there.
Interviewer: Yeah, so what are some things that you're <inaudible 60:46> according to what you're doing?
Participant: That's a tough question. I don't really know. So I think I've spent this last year trying to facilitate more cross-movement collaboration, because I feel like that's another place for us to increase our collective power. So trying to get more trans people who are doing specific gender justice work in spaces with people who are doing reproductive justice work as a whole, and vice versa, and get people to see the mutual investment in both movements. And I don't feel like that's ever going to be done. So I think continuing to do that feels really important to me. I think also I've been… I've felt like I've been in crisis mode the past year, since we've also gotten a youth healthcare ban, because everyone's in crisis. And we had a lot of trans youth in the state who were accessing gender affirming care. So just continually trying to navigate getting people out of state, because our surrounding states have also gotten bans now. So where we initially sent people to Ohio, which is not that bad of a drive from most places in Kentucky. And then Ohio passed a ban. And then we were sending people also to Indianapolis, and then Indiana's injunction got stayed. So I feel like… and that also feels sad to me, that I don't feel like I've had a lot of time to do, like, positive kind of dreaming, because we've been reacting. But I hope for that in the near future.
Interviewer: I do, too. I hope we have the space and time to <inaudible 63:00> build these. Yeah, it's just, we're just in a space of survival right now, everywhere. Yeah, I mean, I guess, like, how do you sustain and take care of yourself <inaudible 63:14> is so challenging <inaudible 63:18>.
Participant: I mean I think honestly just like spending positive like non-stressful time with the people I'm like in community with, like even like people I'm doing work with. Because those things like can't… like I don't know those aren't even possible to divide. Especially like, yeah, when you're facing state repression. So just like… because I used to just think I needed to like spend time alone to recharge. And I've realized over time like that's not the case. Like I actually need to like form like positive, like not just with like my friends, but like with the like broader, like trans community locally, like broader community people who are working for reproductive justice. Like I need to actually like form relationships outside of work. And so that… I don't know that helps, that helps me a lot. I also do leather work which is very very off topic from that, but just doing something with my hands. And like it's also like doing something that I can give to other people that's like made for them, feels really good and is a good way for me to physically ground myself. So do a lot of that.
Interviewer: So you're so you're an artist, would you say that you're an artist?
Participant: I suppose. There's always a line whether like that… like a it's a craft. I don't know I don't mean that like in even in a demeaning way. Just like it's like it's like welding. Not like welding, but like making like a sword. You know is that an art or a craft? I don't know.
Interviewer: Yeah I mean both I guess. Yeah I mean you want you want to tell me a little bit more about your leather work? I'm interested in hearing what –
Participant: Sure. Yeah um so I I mean I do a lot I do a wide range of things. I make a lot of little keychains. I also make belts. I make harnesses for people. I've made some lighter cases. I made a little bit of armor, like a cod piece, which was fun because then you get to do wet molding. If you just wet leather and shape it around something, it'll get pretty hard, which is how they had leather armor. And I had no idea about that. So there's just a lot of… there are a lot of different skills to learn also with leatherwork, which I've been doing it like five years now. And there's just continually… like there's so much more you can like learn to do. And so that feels really good. There's always there's always something new I could learn to make.
Interviewer: Awesome yeah I used to blow glass for many years.
Participant: Oh, very cool.
Interviewer: Yeah, so I like doing the work with my hands. Is it an art or a craft? It's definitely both.
Participant: Yeah, real. That's awesome.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah, thanks for for sharing that. That sounds like a really good way to be creative, to have an outlet and that to center yourself during <inaudible 66:44> such a merciless and terrible time that we kind of are surviving in. Yeah, I guess like what have been other some other important sources of support for you over the years?
Participant: Um honestly… sorry my dog looked like he was doing something weird so it's okay, buddy. So yeah, I mean, my partners have been very supportive. And honestly, I don't have a good relationship with my dad, but my mom has been very supportive. My ex-spouse has also been pretty supportive as well. Just knowing there are people that are like there for me and like want me to be okay helps me like not like overwork myself into like oblivion, like even when that feels necessary. Like knowing that they're they're are people who who care about me and want me to like take care of myself as well. And love… and also that they'll help me take care of myself I think has been really really critical.
Interviewer: <inaudible 68:10>
Participant: I feel like I do, yeah.
Interviewer: I mean, is there is there something that if you wanted to be like remembered for like one thing? Is there something that you would want?
Participant: Hmm. Um, I've never really thought about that. I mean, I think, I think, I don't know, it sounds weird, but I think just like, broadly, being a good person, like being someone who wants to like do right by the people around them. And like do right by people broadly. I feel like that's the the best way for me at least for how I could be remembered.
Interviewer: Is there is there anything else you wanted to share or add that I didn't get to? I feel like there's a lot, obviously, but…
Participant: I don't think so. Honestly, you asked really great questions, I feel like.
Interviewer: Yeah, I mean, thank you for sharing. I mean, I still have more questions. I feel like I could have asked like tons of questions, like even you bringing up your relationship with your parents. That's like, obviously, people, trans folks, gender nonconforming folks, it's so all over the place our, relationships with our biological parents. You know um like majority of times it's not uh good healthy relationships, right?
Participant: Yeah.
Interviewer: So I guess I am interested in that. And like also even experiences of abortion too and how that impacts our our familial biological relationships too.
Participant: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Interviewer: Yeah. But yeah, I mean, thank you for your time, Oliver. I super appreciate it. I mean, if you want to get together again and have another session, and we could talk more, I'm fully open to that. But yeah, I don't know if you had anything else you wanted to add or share. I try to like, end it like more like a positive note, like thinking about your support system and like but you know because obviously it's it's terrible out here on all aspects. So it's good to try to remember like and try to like hone in and on the things that we do have and all the great things that are that are around us.
Participant: Oh yeah absolutely yeah. I don't think I have anything else like right now. Um if you if you have like other questions and and there's other stuff you want to talk about I am definitely down to like chat again. That that is I'm totally good with whatever. I don't think I yeah I don't think I have anything else like offhand so.
Interviewer: Okay okay. Well you're… so I'm gonna stop recording if that's okay.
Participant: Yeah.