Jo Botelho
Description, audio, and transcript coming soon!
Listen to Part 1 :
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Interviewer: Okay, so this is Vrindavani and I am having a remote conversation with Jo for the Trans Abortion Oral Histories Project. Today is June 11, 2024. Hi, Joe. Would you like to introduce yourself a bit?
Participant: Hi there. Yeah. Thank you, first of all, Vrindavani, for having me here. My name is Jo. My pronouns are they, she, I am an abortion haver. I haven't found the right words. I know that's like being commonly used right now, but I am somebody who's had multiple abortions. I am a queer birthing parent. I am a reproductive justice worker, community care worker, and I'm just excited to be here and share a little bit about me and my story with you today.
Interviewer: Yay. Yeah, I'm excited to hear more about you and your history. What about you starting with a little bit more background about who you are and kind of like how you came into this world.
Participant: Yeah, that's a great, what a big question. Okay, a little bit about me and how I came into this world. So I am a child of immigrants. I am multiracial, multi-ethnic, and my father is white American. But I was largely, and I mean largely, meaning like fully raised, by my Philippinex immigrant family. I'm second generation. Just learned all the terminology about generations for the longest time. My family was like, you're first generation, so I went by that. But I'm not. I'm not first generation. If anything, I'm definitely second generation. And my biological mom and the mom that raised me is, I think, 1.5 generation. She immigrated here from the Philippines around the age of eight, I believe, with her siblings and her mom. My grandfather was already here. They immigrated here from the Philippines in, I believe, it was the 70s, in the mid-70s, landed in the San Francisco Bay Area. And then I came into the world several, a few… not several, a few decades later. I was born in the San Francisco East Bay, in a far more affluent part of the Bay Area, in the Tri-Valley, in the San Ramon-Walnut Creek area, and that is where I was born. All of my primary education happened in that area, so I was consistently exposed to a much more privileged way of living, more like working middle class community. Really well-resourced education, really well-resourced everything, social systems in general. Although it was very strange to grow up in that environment, growing up in an immigrant household, my family ended up leaving the San Francisco Bay Area in the 80s when my mom was in high school because my grandfather wanted to move closer to his work, which was based out here in San Ramon. And he'd been saving for years. They lived in South San Francisco. They lived in a one-bedroom apartment for over, I think it was like close to a decade. A family of six immigrants living in a small one-bedroom apartment. And they did that for years. And eventually like siblings grew up and left and did their own thing. But yeah, they ended up out here where my mom met my dad. There's a… Camp Parks is in Dublin. It's a Army Reserve, Army base. And my dad was stationed on in Camp Parks Army Reserve. And that's how my mom and dad met. They're no longer together, but they met each other when my mom was in her early 20s. They very quickly got married and had me and that's how I came into the world. I feel like there's more to it but it was like I think that like the whole rushedness of it all is also pretty like indicative of like my entry into this world. Again I was raised by my immigrant family. My dad was not very connected to his family. They were low socioeconomic kind of upbringing background, traveled. My paternal grandfather was a trucker, so they traveled and lived all over the United States, from Washington State to Kansas to Florida. And so, I don't have a lot of ties to my paternal side. But that's okay, I was raised by a really amazing, loving immigrant family and that they are for sure 1000% the root of who I am in my community and in my world today. It was challenging, I think, just the intergenerational… everything intergenerational at play. But largely like my community work is rooted in being second generation, being the first person in my family to have been born in the United States and to be like growing up and being raised in the like Western normative culture and navigating that. So from a very early age, I was supporting my family and navigating everything, all the systems. Particularly, I had a knack for navigating the healthcare system with my family, with my grandparents in particular, who are both college educated, but immigrated here in their 40s. And so, Tagalog is their main, their native language. And there was language barriers, and there was cultural barriers, and all the barriers that they consistently came up against in getting dignified care. Which really is like the beginnings of me stepping into community care work, and what what has like created this trajectory towards me working in reproductive justice and social justice movements as an advocate. And for myself, I think, in a lot of ways. I feel like I can get really deep into the weeds with all of this. How am I, am I kind of following the line?
Interviewer: I mean, you're doing, you're doing great. Like if you, whatever you wanna share, however you wanna go, it's like up to you. You want me to ask you a question?
Participant: Sure, sure.
Interviewer: I mean, you said you started navigating healthcare services for your family. I guess I wanted to ask you how old you were when you started that and how was that? Or what was your experiences doing that?
Participant: I think that it's kind of blurry, right? I think that there was a point at which it just organically started happening when I was like, I think my earliest memories are around middle school. And it was when that critical thinking really came in. And I feel like I, even earlier in my childhood, I started to like question, like why… like I would hear the conversations that the adults would have, right? And I'd be like, why is this? Or like, that's interesting. And then I also had my own interactions, like going to the pediatrician. My mom… I think that this is largely because culturally and for various reasons, but my mom was like on it, was like following the recommendations to a T, did everything that the pediatricians… she just pulled out notes for me because she's been like doing this records purge and she was pulling out notes from like birth for me medically. And she was just really on it. And I think we talked a little bit about how like, she was just, like a lot of this is because I am an immigrant and a person of color and I did not want to deviate from what they told me to do. I did not want… they already were like, because we're… me and my siblings are multiracial and we genetically look so different. We're all biologically, we share the same families, but she was flagged like from the beginning. She was like, yeah, they were like, how many fathers do these children have? And like, why? Also like, that was all things that I absorbed so early on. Like, I think like earliest memories, I was probably like fourth or fifth grade, like hearing these things and being like, that's not right. Or like rude. Like being just like natural, like children defensiveness of like, how dare somebody say that me and my siblings don't have the same parents? And like, now I have a different framework of that, but like, just getting that, like, something's not right here. We're not being treated right here. My mom's not being treated right here. Like, what's going on? I think more formally, I started to step into a like, a formal role within my family unit of navigating healthcare in middle school, probably like seventh or eighth grade. So on my way into high school, where like I hadn't… I was so… from a young age I really loved science and anatomy and physiology and health. And as I was really involved in sports and so I was like always curious about like, how do I like heal my ankle sprain faster so I can get back on the court? Or like things like that. And so I think that my own personal passions and like me wanting to do certain things really drove me to want to know more about health and get a little bit more involved with my family too. Because to be honest, I was highly indoctrinated into Western culture in all aspects. In health, in nutrition, and things like that. And so like, was confused. It was me as a multi-ethnic, multi-racial child, youth trying to navigate like… my family lives a very different way than like what Western culture is. And I'm glad that I went through that. Like sometimes I think I felt shame around that for a long time of like, why are we so different? And like, why can't we be normal? And all of these things that I think so many youth go through. But the truth is like, in retrospect, I'm like, I'm glad that I went through that kind of like, disconnect and trying to like reconnect and like make sense of it all so that I could come to this point where I'm like, dang, the system's really, really set us for a spin here. And like culture, Western culture really like, tries to remove us from our roots and things like that. So that's a tangent, but all that to say, middle school, I really started to step more into a more formal role. And then by high school, I was attending visits and medical visits with my grandparents. And then into adulthood, I was acting more in a caregiver role, a liaison role and translating the best that I can. I don't speak Tagalog, but I understand Tagalog and I speak a little bit, like it's very like basic. But like helping to translate a bit or helping to just like translate essentially to medical providers, this is what my grandparents are trying to tell you right now. And that really became more involved in high school when my grandmother started to be pretty regularly diagnosed with cancer, various types of cancer across her body, as well as other health conditions, and then eventually my grandfather as well. And now in current day, they both have been diagnosed with dementia. And navigating that with my family, navigating the system to get them as much support as possible, but also caregiving in all of that. So it's definitely been like a fairly lifelong thing, but more formally, I stepped into that in my later youth, high school, middle school.
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Interviewer: That's amazing work. I mean, that's a lot of immigrant children, children of immigrant parents, like into that role. So it's not uncommon. I guess I wanted to ask you a little bit more about your relationship with your family, because it sounds like you're really close now and you took on these roles as like a child. So it sounds like there's a lot of love and care there, but yeah, what are some of like the values? And you also mentioned like Western values too that your family challenged. I guess like what were some of the values that you grew up in?
Participant: Yeah, I love that question. We weren't always… we haven't always been this close. And I think that's a complicated response actually. We've… my family, like the Philippinex culture is so relational and I think most, most people of color, like our roots, our cultures, are so relational, like it's so centered on that, right? But like my framework is through the Philippinex culture. And like that's something that I love so much about my culture. I didn't always feel this way. There were times where I was very much like, I want to be myself. I want to be Jo. I don't wanna be attached to this family. I don't wanna be bound by your expectations. It's been a struggle. I think so many children of immigrants can relate to that. Like that individualism, collectivism, and finding the balance, that more interdependent autonomy where you can be you and also have this amazing familial community support system through your culture. But it wasn't… I think I wanted to preface that by saying like, I was not always close. There was a big chunk of my life after I dropped out of San Francisco State, after I dropped out of college, where I really distanced myself and truly cut off my family in so many ways. It wasn't like a cold cutoff, like we did keep in contact from here and there, but I really needed space to like figure out who the fuck I was away from that family unit. And that was hard and challenging, but also like such a transformational part of my life. But all that to say the values, it kind of came full circle. And like, there are moments still where like, that the balance between values instilling a sense of wellness in like my own personal life and in our family life gets like knocked off kilter and it becomes more toxic, right? Like, we are highly dependent on one another as a family. And like, in the best form, we take care of one another and we support one another and we show up for one another. And like, we always know that there's gonna be somebody there that can like lend a hand or like back you up or just listen or like whatever it might be. And in the worst case scenario, It's like in moments where we're all depleted or like where things are chaotic and there's no direction, like we really kind of bring each other down. And so it's really interesting. Like, I think that goes with all the values. So that is for sure one of the values that growing up in my family and in my culture has instilled in me is a sense of dependence on one another. Or I think I really like the term interdependent autonomy, although we are constantly as a family working to figure out what that means and what that looks like. I think another sense is just like, I… and I struggle with this one too. I think a lot of, obviously a lot of people of color struggle with like the idea of resilience, where like, I'm so grateful that I am resilient as I am, that my family is resilient as we are. Like we are struggling through navigating end of life with my grandparents and dementia, and which comes with all of the everything healthcare. And we're struggling so hard, and yet there's still this sense of like, we've been through so much shit collectively, individually, ancestrally, we're gonna be just fine, and also why? It's like, also why do we have to continue to have to fight this uphill battle and navigate these systems that aren't built for us and feel like we're constantly butting up against walls and not having our needs met? And so, yeah, I kind of think of that. And I think of everything on this spectrum and I think values-wise, it's like resilience and just… I don't know that dependency is the right word, but just being able to show up for one another. And oh, gosh, the transparency, that too. We talk. We are talkers. It's not necessarily the most helpful communication at times. Sometimes it's too much. Sometimes it's harmful. Sometimes it's not thought out, and it's reactive. But we talk to each other, and we talked amongst each other in these different factions. And like information moves within our family unit. So yeah, all that to say, lots of amazing values growing up as a child of immigrants. Also like there's that fine line where it can get a little bit too much. But I for one am deeply grateful for my experiences. I think that it makes me who I am for better or for worse.
Interviewer: Yeah, that's amazing. I guess I wanted to ask you, like you're talking so much about your family and your Philippinex culture, how much strength and all the values that come from these experiences. Would you like to talk more about like your relationship to gender, like growing up and amongst these different relations of culture and family?
Participant: Yeah. That's always been a challenge. So I identify as gender expansive, gender fluid. I think more recently have been exploring a little bit more of, like, my more non-binary femme side, that terminology was introduced to me recently through reading about community members' experiences. And I was like, is this… I think that's why I've always just, like, really landed with, like, I'm gender non-conforming, I'm gender expansive, because I've… from the beginning I feel like I really struggled with the cis heterogender norms that I grew up in. I remember coming out in high school and being like, I think I'm bisexual and like people being like what? Like you just you're just doing that for attention. Or like what does that mean? Like or like people being like completely misled and being like… and then being like, oh, like are you a lesbian now? And me being like, I don't know. Like I'm… I don't know, but you're not helping by like attaching all this meaning to me and how I identify. And then… and this was like high school in the early 2000s, right, where in a fairly affluent neighborhood in the San Francisco Bay Area, which I think a lot of people assume is very progressive and queer-friendly. And that was not the case. Everything about my existence was questioned when I felt that really strong desire to be like, I think I need to name that I am not like my peers, or at least the peers that I surrounded myself with, and that there's something different about me, and I want to be accepted as who I am wholly. But the idea of gender really was not introduced to me until after I had my child at 27. And so very recently, right? And I am constantly just amazed by youth because I think that Gen Z, if it weren't for younger millennials and Gen Z being like, we're going to say these things and we're going to use social media to share this information and we're going to like… we're not going to shy away from this. I don't know that I would have ever like… it just kind of blew my mind how sheltered I truly was. I moved to San Francisco right after I graduated high school. That was where I was called to be. I had spent a lot of time… my aunts had spent a lot of time bringing me out there. They both played for a lesbian softball league, so I was highly exposed to the lesbian community growing up. And it felt like home to me, like there was something… it didn't feel like 100% who I was or like that I shared my identity, but that was how narrow my view of gender and sexuality was for my entire youth. And even when I moved to San Francisco, I spent a lot of time with queer members of my community. And like, I just remember being like, tell me everything because like, you'll say something about what you experienced in dating or like, in socializing. And it's, it's like, it feels like something that I want to experience or feels like something that like, feels like home to me. And I … it was just a… so much exploration and gathering of information and like, really like taking that… such that narrow view and like opening it up and being like, oh, it's not what they told me. For… forever I just assumed that like there were girls, there were boys and that was my… with my family with my community, that was those were the labels that they assigned to us as children, right? I was assigned female at birth, I was a girl. But also I wasn't into the typical gendered, girly things. I like to get dirty, and I like to be physical, and I like to, you know, have adventure, and I liked to, like, not dress up Barbies, but, like, tattoo them, and cut their hair, and color them with markers, and do all of these things that my family, who, they're Philippinex, they're, they're… the country, they grew up in a time, my grandparents specifically, in a time where there was so much political and social unrest. I think that's always been the history of the Philippines since colonization. Highly colonized people, grew up in the church. And so for them, the support that they could give me at that time was to be like, you're a tomboy or like you're athletic. And I freaking hated it. I hated being called a tomboy And not because… I don't know. It just was like one of those things where I was like, how dare you like assign to me what you think I am? Like, does that mean that I'm not girl enough? Does that mean that I'm not femme enough? Does that mean that I'm masculine or that I'm a boy and I don't know that I feel like a boy? Like, I did not… my family, and the truth is like, although there were times in my life there was a lot of resentment towards my family, now there's a lot of understanding of like, wow, you also had this very narrow view of what gender and sexuality is. All that to say, as I deepen my relationship with my ancestry, I come to find out, and this is over the last five years is like, this was not the roots of our culture. Our culture was not gendered. We revered folks that identified off the spectrum, like we didn't even have gender, right? Our pronouns were gender-neutral, they were they, they were, you know, like blew my mind. But I think we feel like I skipped over a big part, which was when my child was born, I went through a lot of… I had had abortion experiences prior to my child being born, or like sexual wellness experiences where I experienced gender dysphoria or just being misgendered. And I didn't know that that was going on in those experiences. I knew that I didn't feel right. I didn't feel like… I think it was being pregnant with my son, like a choice that I had, right, to be pregnant and to continue a pregnancy and bring a life into the world. And the care that I received through that experience really blew the top off gender ideology for me. And I had not gone to college. I went to college briefly and dropped out but like I wasn't exposed to… like San Francisco State has an amazing gender studies program, human sexuality program. I wasn't exposed to those things because I left. I had to work. And I wasn't exposed to literature and like definitely the public schools in San Ramon didn't share information about this, right? And like so it was interesting when I re-entered college after my son was born and I started taking like gender studies courses and things that were interesting to me, I was just like constantly like a kid in a candy shop. I was like, what? And like introduced to new terminology. And like it was it was probably like 2018-2019 that I'd first heard somebody be like what are your pronouns? And I was like I don't know what that means but tell me more. And so I was like, I feel like I'm getting excited about it because it was such a healing, transformative experience to me to be introduced to these things. And I remember learning terms like pansexual, gender fluid, expanding on trans, because that is a term… transgender is a term that I'd known about for much of my life, but it was often used in a derogatory way, right? And, like, learning these things and, like, hearing the way that people explained it because we have social media and we have technology where things, people create these, like, beautiful stories or these beautiful reels. And, like, I would just be, like, on Instagram, like, oh my gosh, like, this is a thing? Like, this is… and I would write notes and I'd be, like… and then I would sit and I would journal and I'd be, like, well, I, I, you know, I don't feel sexual or romantic feelings. Like, am I Demi? And like, these different things. And so like, having this, it was like a whole new world had opened up to me. And to be honest, I think that like, that being opening up to me in like my late 20s, early 30s, there's a part of me that's like struggling and like, it's too late for me. Like, I can't be that like really expressive queer person that live, like queer youth that lives inside me. Like, and then there's a part of me, I have a… my therapist is quite a bit younger than me and queer and they're constantly like, stop saying you're too old. Like stop, don't limit yourself, like you're learning and you have… like you can explore this and you can like try on different, like… you can try on different things to see what feels right for you. I think that I have like, in a lot of ways, sold myself short because I chose a monogamous, very cis-hetero-presenting relationship. And when I came out to my partner, too, after my child was born, and I was like, I don't think that I am this, it brought up so much and it cracked things open. And we ended up separating for a while because he couldn't quite understand like what this all meant for him and like did I not love him anymore? Did I not want to be in a relationship? So it has been a journey. The gender journey for me has been a journey. And it will be. It will be for the rest of my life I think. But I think that the fact that it coincides with me raising up a little person to be in this world is pretty like… I think it's… I'm like thank you universe for this gift that like I could be learning all this alongside this little one who who hopefully will have a more liberated childhood and more… I mean, he already does, right? He's like, my pronouns are he, him, they, them, or ask me. And like, I ask Silas, I ask my little one consistently, like when we're filling out forms and stuff. So it's a start of a new cycle for our family, I think. And yet there's still, there's definitely a lot of sadness too. There's a lot of sadness and grief for the younger version of me that didn't fully get to like live through all the queerness that exists inside me.
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Interviewer: That's all… everything you're saying is really beautiful and gender… and being transgender and being under that umbrella is like, it's ever-expanding, like we're always gonna be on our gender journey, like it's like…
Participant: Love that, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah, so it's a continuum and it's a process. So you're not late. But I guess I wanted to ask you, I mean you shared so much right now and I guess I wanted to ask you more about like your own abortion experiences because you said you're someone who has had multiple abortions. Do you want to share a bit more about…
Participant: Yeah, yeah I would love to. It's something that was really challenging for me I think for a long time because all these other pieces, right? My gender identity, my… just the family I grew up in, like there was so much working in those parts of my life that like it was not even something I had a capacity to process. But I'm in a good place with them. And I would say I think where this starts for me would be my very first time experiencing a surprise, unwanted pregnancy, which I was… it was 2000, the beginning of 2008. It was after I… because I had just left San Francisco, I found out I was pregnant over the winter break. And I… it was just not, it was a very hard time in my life. It was a very transitionary time in my life. I was really not getting the support that I needed for my mental wellness. I was navigating a very carceral mental health system.
Interviewer: How old were you at that time?
Participant: I was 18, on my way to turn 19. I was ending a relationship with my high school sweetheart at the time. I was struggling with chemical dependency. There was just a lot going on for me at that time. I did not know or have access to the resources that I needed to just survive at the time. I was surviving. I was surviving. And I found out that I was pregnant over winter break. I already knew that I had completely fucked up my first semester at college, the fall semester. I say that with a lot of grace too, because San Francisco State was my first exposure to political activism. And so I was working to pay for tuition and books. I did receive some financial aid, but not a lot. We didn't… I didn't know how to… I was the first in my family to navigate that system as well. So we really did not know what we were doing at the time. But I would often skip school to take more hours at work so that I could pay for my rent and try to eat food or pay for drugs or things like that. And I was spending a lot of time… I had been indoctrinated… some people that I went to high school with that I did not have a relationship with in high school also went to San Francisco State, and they really saw me on campus one day and latched onto me. I was also very lonely at the time, so I latched onto them and was indoctrinated into the Greek system, which my experience was incredibly problematic for me and for many people. But I was indoctrinated into the Greek system. Not really something that I-
Interviewer: The sorority, fraternity stuff. Okay, sorry.
Participant: Not something I had planned to do, but was very much exposed to a lot of partying, a lot of drugs, a lot of sex, a lot of abuse in that system. And so struggling with that while trying to work to survive while trying to like maintain this image of like the studious athletic person that my family saw me as while not going to class and really like struggling with traditional schooling too. That's something that I struggled with forever, and then college was like oh now you have to be responsible for like showing up to class and taking all the notes and like all of this. And I struggled with it. And so I, on winter break, I went home and I didn't tell anybody, but I feel like I made a silent promise to myself that I was not going to go back. Which I was 18, you know, at the time, and had not told my landlord that I wasn't coming back, had not told the schools, had not told my family. Just kind of was like, I'm going to park myself here and see how long I could be here before somebody notices that I've gone missing. And it wasn't too long before my mom noticed. But it started a big feud. I did not tell her that I was pregnant. Me and my high school sweetheart at the time who I believed at the time to be the other partner involved in my pregnancy had been… it just was not a good ending to our relationship. And they had been… started a relationship with somebody else and did not want to be involved and were ignoring my calls, even though I was like, I'm pregnant, we need to talk about this. So it was a pretty desperate time in my life. I had already gone to Planned Parenthood in… my local Planned Parenthood to get medication, but I grew up in a very Catholic household. And so the thought of abortion, it was like, for me, it was like, I don't think this is an option for me. But also pregnancy is not an option for me.
Interviewer: What option do you have?
Participant: What option do I have? So I kind of just ignored it for a few weeks. And I think I was like, I think that I was probably around maybe around like eight or nine weeks pregnant when I started to miscarry. And when I say I started to miscarry, I tried everything at the time that I could. I was punching my stomach. I was taking as much of the drugs that I had access to as I could without feeling like I was going to kill myself. Like the purpose was not for me to overdose, but I was like, these aren't good for you, right? So if I take a whole bunch of it, it has to like end the pregnancy. But I was… and we didn't have like the internet that we have today either. This was 2007. Yes, the internet was available. There was Google and there was like Yahoo and old versions of Ask Jeeves and stuff, but like...
Interviewer: AOL and stuff.
Participant: AOL, exactly. There was no forum, like the forums on the dark web were like… I didn't… it was too scary to even like post anything there, you know? Or like ask… definitely felt like I couldn't ask anybody because like, what were they going to think? Like I'm pregnant, like what if they tell me that I need to keep the pregnancy? I, you know, didn't want people's opinions. I knew what I wanted, which was to not be pregnant and I was going to figure out how to do that. So I exercised really hard. Like I said, I self-mutilated and I punched myself. I took medications. There were points where I did think about like throwing myself down a stairs or like I'd heard stories, right? Like I'd heard like you can use a coat hanger. I didn't know what that meant, but I like had a basic, I was into anatomy and physiology. I'd already taken like three anatomy and phys 101 courses at that time. So I was like, I know what female genitalia looks like. I'm going to like, I'm going to handle this. And so I did everything that I… it was scary. It was like scary. So I, I think that like, I tried everything that I could to self-manage my abortion outside of going to Planned Parenthood, telling anybody else or sticking instruments inside my body. And then I started to bleed and was like, I don't know what this means. Maybe this is my period. Maybe I'm not pregnant. I think that I just didn't have information. And when I think back about those memories, it's so blurry. It's so like, I feel like desperation, like the desperation that I felt at the time. And just like I was a child. Like when I look back, I'm like that was a child version of me going through something incredibly painful and confusing and not having any information about what was available to me. And like… or like knowing like the basics but like not knowing that it was safe for me to go to Planned Parenthood, that they weren't going to tell my family that like… or things like that you know what I mean? Or like having access to like family experiences and stuff. So that was my first… that was my first experience with pregnancy, self-managed abortion, and wanting to… like being in a situation where I was pregnant and did not want to be pregnant. And the complications too of like having… I had left the Catholic church at that time but had not shed the Catholic guilt. Like that was fucking crazy and so heavy and constantly looming over me. And there was a part of me that was like, I like kids. And like, I think that I'm good with kids. And like, maybe I do want to parent. I think there was that voice too. But the strongest voice was like, this is not it. This is not, this is not how your story is going to go. My mom had also started having children… my dad and mom were in their early 20s, and I think witnessing, like being raised by young parents in the way that my parents raised us, because I think there are some young parents that are just killing it and like really incredible. But my parents really struggled as young parents. And maybe not so much that they were young –
Interviewer: Didn't have support, yeah.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 39:57 ]<<<<
Participant: Didn't have the support, exactly. And so… and I knew that I wouldn't have that support. Like maybe I would have. My brother ended up having his first child when he was 21 and we all showed up. So maybe I would have too, but like, it was not what I wanted. And that was it. So that was it. And I… that story, like I bled and it was painful and it was scary and there were things coming out of me that I was like, I don't know what this is. I'm going to flush it. And like, I don't want to tie my… that story was flushed down the toilet along with everything else for very, very, very many years. It was something that the only people that really knew were my… I did tell my brother, who was, he's 19 months younger than me, so he was like 17 at the time, maybe just turning 17, and was like, what the fuck? And like, never asked me again about that. Was just like, okay, I don't know what this means, you know, and like… so he knew. And then my partner, my ex-partner at the time who just ignored the whole thing. And so it was a very lonely experience. But like I said, I flushed my story down the toilet to you and like for years just didn't talk about it. But then I would hear stories, right? This was, I was 18 going on 19. I turned 19 that March. I would hear stories from people and I'd be like, I would want to be like, me too, or like, I went through that. But then of course, the shame of self-managing, right? It wasn't like I was like, yeah, I went to Planned Parenthood and I got my first-
Interviewer: Yeah, it wasn't called self-managed during that time, or yeah.
Participant: No, it was like, I felt like a, I felt, because of the stigma, I felt like I'm a criminal, I've done something wrong. If anybody finds out, they're gonna call me a murderer, they're gonna call me… all… I beat myself up for years on that. Until, I think until maybe it was like Obama's second term when I like started to get more… I started to like build more of an understanding of politics. And like that was like, that's always, abortion is always such a like big political thing, right? It's what people like, it's like such, it's like a staple on people's platforms. I'm for it. I'm against it. And I just remember being like, I guess I have to decide whether I'm for it or I'm against it. And I was always like, this was like my early 20s, right? Because I first voted for Obama in 18, when I was 18 that year. And then the next time must have been I was 22. And so it was probably around then, 2012, or 2012, that I was like, I was living in Oakland, I had, oh, gosh, I had been exposed to a lot of radical ideas in San Francisco, that like my little, like Asian, very, like, very protected mind was like, Oh, my gosh, like people believe these things. And like, so I was, again, with my gender journey, my political journey too was also just a lot of people being like, breaking down all of these norms that I was indoctrinated into. Being in a family that was an immigrant family that has a history of colonization or ancestry, going to school in the United States, all of these things. I had all of these ideas of how the world worked and then started being introduced to these people who had all these radical ideas, and they were just knocking these beliefs left and right. So I was just like a new little baby political learner at the time. And I was like, I have to make a decision about abortion. And I didn't really even give it a second thought. I was like, I'm pro-choice. I wouldn't make that decision for myself. And that's exactly what I used to tell people. I think that people should have a choice to have an abortion or not, but I wouldn't have an abortion myself. And that was a lot of the self-hate and self-stigma around my experience. I think it was like wanting to like really like wrap that up tight by being like, I myself would never have an abortion, like let me protect that that vulnerable part of myself by saying no.
Interviewer: So did you see yourself as not having had an abortion during that time?
Participant: Yeah I think that I did. I think that I like, for much of my 20s, actually, I think that I didn't talk about it, but I think that if I would have voiced my experience, I would have voiced it as like I had a miscarriage, or I would have lied and said like I've never been pregnant before, you know, or like that that experience didn't happen. I think that like I didn't talk about it, but I think that like if I could dig back into my brain at that time, it was really like blocking it out. Like this did not happen, I did not have this experience. Nobody is… I think that like I at the time I made this oath to myself that this was going to go to my grave. That nobody would ever know that this had happened to me. And that my brother… like I trusted that my brother wasn't going to tell people. The other person was already out of my life at the time. I was like whatever. I and I'd also like broken off from that social circle of friends, so I was like, whatever information they want to talk about, whatever, I'm just, I deny it, it's not, it's not real. So I do think that like, there was a lot of like, I really… the self, the stigma, the self stigma was at an all time high at that time, where I was like, it's not, it's not a part of my story, I'm not going to share it. And didn't realize how much that was festering inside me too until recently, probably until my second abortion when I realized I have gone through this before. Some of these feelings are the same. It's a different experience, it's a different story. And also this feels familiar in my body, what's going on. But yeah, so I made that choice, was like, remember being so proud to like tell my family to like, I… because they were always like, my grandfather was like making donations to 40 Days Of Life, and I'd be like, don't do that. Like, you know, like, you know, trying in a very like, basic elementary way explaining my political ideology and like my beliefs around abortion, access and care and choice. And then… so that was like, that was my 20s, I think, like, so that was 2012. I was around 22 when I started to like really think more about abortion care. And then my son, I got pregnant with my son. And then again, that… my beliefs were questioned because it was me and my partner at the time had just, we… my son was born out of like love and reconciliation. I had a few months prior to me finding out I was pregnant with Silas, I bought a one-way plane ticket to Spain. I was gonna… we were, we were legally married but we were in a very unhealthy place in our relationship. There was a lot of emotional abuse coming at me. There was a lot of like codependency coming out of me and I was done with the relationship and wanted to run away. So I bought a one-way ticket to Spain. I moved out temporarily out of our house into a communal living situation. And then somehow we started to reconcile and then I found out I was pregnant. And I remember that moment of being like, I'm making the choice to continue this. I don't know what it was, but it was like so different than my previous experience where I was like, nope, this can't happen. I was like, I'm going to continue this pregnancy. And to be honest, Vrindavani, I don't know. Like, it's hard for me to talk about because this is my child who I love and I'm so glad that they're here and I don't regret that in any way. But there's… it's hard for me not to be like, I was not in a good place for me, right? I would never define this for anybody else, but for me, I was not in a good place to be bringing a child into the world. My partnership was struggling, I just planned on running away to another country, I was living paycheck to paycheck, depending on like friends for housing. I had no real clear direction. I was incredibly depressed and like really struggling with my mental wellness. So there's a part of me that's like maybe my choice to continue my pregnancy with my child… not maybe, like it was directly affected by my previous experience and the guilt and shame and years of like beating myself up. But I did not want to go through that again. I did not want to go through what I went through in my teens again. And so from the moment I found out I was pregnant, I was like 1000% fighting to keep that pregnancy. My partner was like, wait a second, wait a second, I don't think that we should continue this pregnancy. I think that you need to consider getting an abortion. And it caused so much conflict in our relationship. And it was a really, really, really… it's a really strange part of our story because we had been married for three years at the time, legally married for three years. We'd been in a relationship for five years at the time. We hadn't really had that conversation. We definitely didn't come to consensus as to whether we wanted to start a family. I was very back and forth. If anything, my partner was the most steadfast and like, I don't, you know, if it happens, it happens. But like, I don't really wanna raise a family. I don't really wanna raise children. This is the first time I really… like talking about this outside of me and my partner. We've done a lot of talking about it, but like that was a pivoting, pivotal moment in our relationship where like… I mean, there's a… I think that I caused a lot of harm in that because on one… in one case I was like, this is my body, this is my choice. Like I was really living that like, this is my body, this is my choice, I get to choose. And also I had a partner who I love and care about telling me like, I'm also here and like, it's not my body and I'm not pregnant right now, but I contributed to this pregnancy and I don't think I want to do this. So it's, it's, I think it's a story that like happens so often that we don't talk about or give voice to is like the dynamics of like two people that are involved in a pregnancy and negotiating like, you know, we all oftentimes we hear that like… oftentimes we hear that like we both wanted to get pregnant. Like that's the the romanticized version of pregnancy, right, is like you see it all over Instagram of like two people, married or not, that want to have a baby and both people are incredibly excited when the pregnancy test is positive. Or the opposite side of like two people who do not want to have a baby and they get the pregnancy test and they're like, this is like doom, we need to figure out what to do with this. And not like the vast gray area of like feelings that come up when a pregnancy happens, even if it is planned, right? So yeah that's… I think that I could like talk forever about that, but I guess the short version is like, we did not agree on this, and I ended up making the choice that I was going to continue the pregnancy. And I also was not like, I expect that you be here. I was also like, if this is not a choice that you can make for yourself : show up for me… I don't want this to come across as me justifying it, because I really do… it took me a long time to get to this place of like, I did not listen to my partner at the time. I did not listen to what they wanted for their life or what they needed or the implications of what that meant for this person for me to continue my pregnancy, and the harm that I caused in not listening. And I felt very strongly about making a choice about what I wanted to do with my body. And, although there are parts of that experience and story that I do regret and wish that I could do differently, I don't regret bringing this kid into my life. Because they're incredible. It's complex. It's like, I feel emotional talking about it because it's so complicated, right? It's like, I can't imagine a world without Silas, without my child. And also, I made a decision for two people… three people. I made a decision for three people, and like I don't know that people understand the weight of that decision. And that that like, yes, there are so many factors involved. But like I think sometimes we sell people that can get pregnant short on like how much weight that decision holds. And so it's complicated. I don't know if I can say it any more than like it's complicated, it's complicated. And, yeah, but I chose to continue the pregnancy. And it was fucking difficult. And being pregnant in a rural part of the state of California in a genderqueer trans non-binary body while navigating my gender identity and my identity as just a freaking living breathing thing on this planet, while navigating my issues with my relationship, was really really challenging and like kicked into gear for me my calling. I don't know what the word is, it's like I tell people like I don't… because they'll be like, thank you for the work you do. And I'm like please don't thank me. I don't have a choice at this point. And the truth is, yes, I do have a choice, but like, this is my choice. I choose to do this work because of my life experiences, pre-pregnancy with my child, pregnancy with my child, postpartum with my child, like all of it. Even the healthcare experiences with my grandparents, like all of those, those three big stories that I shared so far, like my youth and navigating that with my grandparents, my first experience with unwanted pregnancy and self-managed abortion and the years that followed that, leading up to pregnancy with my child, and that experience of transitioning into parenthood, are the like the foundation of why I do what I do right now. And the sad thing is like it's like beautiful and tragic, right? All of those experiences, like, I see how they've scaffolded to, like, bring me where I am now, and, like, I have some strange sense of pride in those things, and also, like, so much pain and so much grief around, like, why? Like, why did I have to go through those things to, like, get to where I am now? Or, like, why do people have to go through similar experiences to get what they need, like just like basic things out of life, right? Like reproduction and procreation or whatever… like choosing to have a family or choosing not to have a family, like so much stigma and so many barriers and so much loneliness and so much disconnection, that once I started to see that people were out there doing the work to like bring that connection and remove it from isolation and de-stigmatize all of it. I was like, this is where I belong. This is where I need to be. I don't want anybody else. And I know, that's impossible, right? Where people are going through similar experiences, experiences to more intense degrees as we speak. But it was just one of those moments. Like it came full circle to me when I brought my child home and look… the next day looked at this little being and went, oh shit, now I am raising a person. And that's responsibility. And we talked about values earlier. My family, responsibility, like that was like, we don't define it the same way I think as like Western culture defines it, but like, I am responsible to this child. I'm responsible to this community. I'm responsible to this planet. Like that's something I've always grown up feeling. And so I think when that reality hit that like I made this choice to bring this child into this world, I take this responsibility very seriously. I'm going to live into my values and live into the work around reproductive justice and social justice and anti-racism and harm, all of the political frameworks and ideologies that I am a practitioner of, like this is all of it. That was a lot, but it's interesting. I've talked about the stories in isolation and to be talking to you today in a more linear way of laying it down that path, it's pretty eye-opening. I think I'm going to be processing this for a while too.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 58:29 ]<<<<
Interviewer: I mean, yeah, thanks for sharing all that. I mean, we don't, I mean, thinking about my own history, it's like, I don't really see it in a linear format, because it's continuously kind of living through me. Like the history, you know, and so I don't know, I'm also of social we're the same age. I don't know if… we're both 35. So when you're talking about the different times, I'm like, oh, yeah, I was, you know, I was 19 and stuff.
Participant: Yeah, and it's like wild to… I love that. Thank you for sharing that connection because sometimes I don't know… like it's so funny. Like I default to thinking that like amazing radical people are younger than me because I have such like… sometimes I have like this positive resentment towards my like… our generation now that I know. Like some some people in our generation, I'm like, yo, what? Like we grew up in the same time, how could you be so this way? So like so so I appreciate that.
Interviewer: Yeah yeah I mean we went over time the of the of what's on the schedule, I don't know if you still have more time to share.
Participant: I probably have a hard stop at four, okay?
Interviewer: Okay that's fine. Yeah if you want to keep talking like I'm available, okay. Um so you had your your your son Silas at 22 and you said you had multiple abortions?
Participant: Well I had my son Silas at 27.
Interviewer: Oh 27, okay.
Participant: Yes 22 was when I first made that like conscious decision about how I felt that first like, very, like, uninformed rudimentary decision about how I felt about abortion. And that shifted five years later when I got pregnant with my son. So I had Silas… I got pregnant at 26, and Silas was born at 20… when I was 27. 2016. Which, like, I tell people all the time, I was like, I was a baby having a baby. I know that, like, that's, like, a very normal time to be, like, having children, I guess. I would like to also dispel the idea of normal timing for having children. But I think just where I was at in my life at 27, I was like, I feel like a child.
Interviewer: I mean, isn't that like a millennial thing that we all kind of still feel like children? Maybe because a lot of our childhood was robbed in some way. I don't know.
Participant: Yes. Yes. I feel like there's a part of me that's like, actually, the timing worked out perfect. I am a child raising a child and so this child gets to see like immaturity and that we're imperfect. But yeah, so that… I had Silas at 27. My partner was 31 at the time. We had… we were both… we had nibblings already at the time and yeah, I was just a wild… it was a wild landing. I really struggled postpartum. I think the medical terminology would be that I had postpartum depression and psychosis. I think what really happened is that I was wholly unsupported as a birthing parent, as a new parent. And that year, that first year was desperate and I did… almost did not survive that year of becoming a parent. I… there were multiple times where I really thought that the only option was for me to stop living. And somehow, with support, like very little support, but with powerful… little and powerful support from certain members in my community, I made it through and decided to go back to school and to get… to seek mental health services and be very discerning about the mental health services that I sought. Like very much like I'm not just gonna take any any therapist or like I'm not just gonna like… I'm gonna be very discerning about what I need because I had been parenting also like really forced me to come into like, this is what I need, these are my beliefs and I'm not gonna settle for like anybody that like wants to sway me otherwise. I knew I needed support, and I knew what kind of support I needed, so I really went after that. And then became a doula at the time. And not formally, although I did enter into a training. I didn't feel entirely engaged with it at the time, and then I realized, oh, it's like doula work in 2016 was largely white cisgender women.
Interviewer: Did you go through D.O.N.A. kind of thing?
Participant: Oh, it was not… so it was a D.O.N.A. It was not… I think like I tried to, but I couldn't afford the D.O.N.A.
Interviewer: It's expensive. Yeah, it's for white cis women, like you're saying.
Participant: Yeah, exactly. I went to Birthing Arts International. Have you heard of that one?
Interviewer: I think so. Yeah.
Participant: It was like a more affordable option. They offered payment plans but also like very white cisgender women and like very like… I remember like going… and it was it was asynchronous, right, which is what I wanted too because I was like I struggled with traditional like sitting down listening to lectures and and doing the assignments and taking the tests. Well testing I'm fine with, but like it was not what I wanted. Birthing Arts International was wanted. I do feel like I also probably got scammed a little bit just because I don't know who… it's so interesting. I've been meaning to go back and see if this program still exists and learn more about… because I have a different way of vetting things now, having been in reproductive justice work for some years now. It wasn't that long ago, it was seven years ago, but still, I just remember it just did not feel like I was getting what I was paying for. All that to say, I went through that program, chose not to get certified because I was like, what the fuck is this? I learned some… I learned like the basics, right? I learned like… I learned like basic western pain and pain coping or sensational coping methods and like was introduced to spinning babies and hypno babies and like all these different things. And so that was great. Not really. But I also… it was just like a stepping stone for me into more birth work. But I struggled because I really struggled with the capitalistic side of birth work, where like, people are marketing and branding themselves and selling themselves. And I tried and was like, this is not… and then I like I read all about the business strategies and like how to charge and like charging for your worth which I full heart fully believe in. But I was also not called to… like my first… I remember my first like three interviews with birthing families were wealthy, middle class, white families in Berkeley. And I remember meeting with them and being, like let's meet halfway, because I was living with family in San Ramon at the time. I was like, let's meet halfway in like Diamond District or somewhere in the eastern part of Oakland. And they were like, what? I was like, yeah, I know some cafes. We'll just meet. There's nice outside spaces to sit. We can talk. And I just remember talking to these people and feeling like they want me to control the situation for them. They want what they want in this birth experience. And that's a question that I've always asked, right? It's like, tell me like your dream birth experience, right? Which like, I love that. Like, I love that visualization when I'm working with birthing people of like, if you could like paint a picture, paint that picture of what your birth looks like, I think it's a pretty decent place to start. But they would paint these pictures, and then I would go on to be like, okay, and this is how I can support. And then there would be the questions of like, yeah, but I don't want this, or I don't want that. And I'd be like, birth is incredibly unpredictable, and I don't know, I can't promise you anything. And really struggled to be like, this is what I can offer you, and this is what I can't offer you. And so instead of like leaning into that or like being assertive with my boundaries, which I've always really struggled with, I would either be like, yes, and then feel like I failed because I wasn't stretching to like fit their needs or just ended up like being like, I'm not gonna do this. And that's what led me more into community care work where I was like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna use everything that I learned and the skills that I've learned to like really connect with people that probably can't pay with me. And I'm gonna be okay with that. Even though I needed some sort of wage to like support my family, we were struggling. But my partner was like, was working, making minimum wage, or like a little bit over minimum wage in like a shift lead position. And… but we had family support. I had that… we had that privilege where we had family support. We can live with family and like pay really cheap rent and like what have you. And I was getting government assistance. So I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna help people that need help and not ask for compensation. And it became my comfort spot because I was like, I don't have to sell myself, I don't have to ask for money, there's no exchange of goods, and I'm helping people that truly like… I think that at the time I had a very much like a savior complex. Not… okay, I'm selling myself short there. It was the same… the white savior complex was ingrained in me and so like and also catholicism. Also white saviorism. Was like just help people because that's what you're meant to do. And like who's going to help them if you don't help them? That was my thought at the time. Very… I am very far removed from that now but still it was like that's what drove me to continue doing it. And so I would pick up like odd jobs and things like that. Like I guess it would fall under the umbrella of like postpartum work where I would like go help a new mom like do laundry or like pick up things for them. And that went like full gear once we moved back to Bishop. We left the Bay Area when Silas was two and a half and moved back to Bishop and I think I shared this with you when we talked last time. Got into Facebook marketplace, somebody had created a like moms helping moms page and and my community care work is like deeply rooted into like, this person needs a faja from… and somebody has it up in Mono County, which is like, you're somewhat familiar with the area, like 45 minutes up the highway. So I'm gonna go up to Mono, do my grocery shopping up there, pick up this faja and then deliver it to this family in Bishop. Or like somebody needs formula and like Health and Human Services has it. So I'm gonna go pick it up at Health and Human Services and deliver it. It's like a lot of like… and I did that… I worked at Instacart for a brief time when I was a new parent, so it was a lot of that, like it was a lot of like, okay, the people, the community has the resources, it just needs to be moved, so I'm going to be the one to move it. And then of course, like I would connect with these people, and they'd be like, thank you so much, let me tell you my story, or like, I need somebody to talk to. And then so more of that emotional side of doula and birth work or life work in general started coming in where I would sit with them and just companion and hold space. And then, of course, with stories, more resources are needed. And so I would gather resources or do research or get them connected with people or look up information when they were like, my doctor told me this and I don't feel comfortable with it. And just give people resources to advocate for themselves. And that is like the heart of my community care work, is very scrappy, very like self-taught, self-directed, directed by the needs of my community, and very just like informal really. And also like, I think that I, for a long time, like I didn't really see it as anything impactful. And I'm trying to give myself a little bit more grace as of late and be like, it was it was it was reciprocal, right? And that's where I moved away from a savior complex and was like no I am getting… I am not… I am not doing this to get something for myself out of it. I'm doing this because people did this for me in a time when I needed it and it helped me and now I have a little bit more resource. I have a car, I have access to a car, I can pay for gasoline. I have access to internet where I can like communicate. So I'm going to use the resources that I now have to like continue to like pass this along and create this cycle where we're taking care of each other and community.
>>>>[ Audio Time: 71:56 ]<<<<
Interviewer: That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. I know we only have like 10 more minutes and you have a hard stop at four and I don't know if you'd be interested in doing kind of like a part two because we didn't really get to to your work at Access and being a healthline, you said manager or coordinator?
Participant: Yeah. I'm a healthline manager. I co-manage the healthline and I manage the intake side of things that are new callers. So we're the folks that are first connecting with people doing a lot of referrals. Yeah, I would love to set up another time. There's a part of me that's like, I don't feel like my story is complete if I don't talk about my work at Access or my two most recent abortions in 2020 and the beginning of this year.
Interviewer: Yeah, maybe we could pause right here, if that's okay, if you, unless you wanna share a little bit more.
Participant: I'm okay with, yeah, I'm totally okay pausing here.
Interviewer: Okay, I'm gonna stop the recording and –
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