“P”

• Part 1 - View Transcription

  Interviewer: Okay, so my name is Vrindavani, and I'll be having a conversation with P for the Trans Abortions Oral History Project. Today is September 16, 2024, and this conversation is taking place virtually. So P, how would you like to start today? I know we haven't talked in a while, so maybe you want to tell me a little bit about yourself?

  Participant: Yeah, so my name is P and I, let's see, I connected with you through repro work, I would say, and some of the repro work that I've done has been on talk lines, distributing resources and fundraising and some abortion storytelling. And yeah, I'm here to talk about my experience with abortion.

  Interviewer: Awesome. Do you wanna talk a little bit about the repro work or do you wanna go more into like, more of like your background or kind of introduce yourself like how you came into this work?

  Participant: Sure, the repro work, I mean it's been really important to me in terms of like understanding my experiences with abortion and finding… sometimes when you're getting an abortion it can feel like a really isolating experience, and I think like doing work within reproductive justice, with people who are getting an abortion and are facing maybe some of the same barriers that I was facing, it's really validating. And it also feels like really, I just feel really lucky to be able to do that kind of work in any capacity, to have people's trust, and to be able to move things in the direction of access, I think is really, really important and really, I feel really like honored to be able to do that.

  Interviewer: Yeah, that's awesome. Was there any point at like any specific moment in your life that kind of pushed you to do this work or any type of experience that introduced you to doing reproductive justice work?

  Participant: It was just something that… I think probably my own personal experiences and just kind of feeling like I didn't know a lot about reproductive justice and wanting to learn more. And basically that's how I got involved with different organizations.

  Interviewer: How old were you when you started doing reproductive justice work?

  Participant: Let's see. It was 2019. I think I was like in my later 20s. Yeah, yeah, and I started volunteering with like different organizations. Like distributing money to pay for abortions and scheduling… helping people schedule or kind of figure out what trajectory to take when accessing abortion care, especially when they needed resources. Like a ride to get there, or someone to take them back home, or medication, or even child care, things like that. A lot of costs tend to come up when people need something like an abortion because we need to take time off work and it just it requires a lot of resources. And so I was like navigating all that alongside different people who were calling the helpline. And then I was also in my… some of the other work I was doing was on the talk line where I was, I am still actually volunteering with them where I'm a counselor and it's for people who are on the spectrum of pregnancy and want to process maybe an abortion they had or one that they're planning to have, or even make a decision. Like kind of process their own thoughts about like maybe they're having difficulty with the decision and so we we talk in that space.

  Interviewer: Oh awesome. So you do that kind of support like virtually, then?

  Participant: Yeah, over the phone. I did also do, for a stretch, I did a lot of abortion companion work where I would go in person, so talking to people on the phone. But if there was like a young person who was traveling from another state, if there was like a young person traveling from another state I would, I could potentially, like if they wanted it if they, if it makes sense, you know, if it's something that was needed I could go with them to their appointment and accompany them. Like sometimes I know that there was like times where people like needed to be 21 years old to rent a hotel and so like you need to like… if you're 18 and you don't, or even younger you know, but even 18, let's say you don't have like the resources, you don't have anyone that you're telling that you're getting an abortion, it makes it really hard to check into a hotel when you need to go to like another city to get an abortion. So that's the kind of things that I would do. Bring people food and yeah, things like that.

  Interviewer: Okay, awesome. Yeah, so you're helping people with like doing like traveling accommodations and just kind of direct support on accessing abortion?

  Participant: Mm-hmm.

  Interviewer: Okay, that's awesome. So this kind of started, so you're saying you kind of doing, you started doing this work in like 2019, and this is like obviously before like the Dobbs decision, but I guess I kind of want to like step back a little bit and ask you more about like maybe like your background or what are some communities that are particularly important to you even before like doing this work and even during like doing this work?

  Participant: Yeah I think… I mean the experience of having been a person who has had abortions I think is huge. For a long time, like before I did the work, it was something that I didn't really have much of a connection with, like not in a way that felt… I guess it just felt like something that I didn't think about. Because it was such a difficult experience for me that that I just tried, I guess I felt like, oh, well, there's nothing I can do to change it. It already happened and just kind of move forward or the idea of moving forward. And when I started volunteering, I felt like there's just like this rhetoric of being pro-abortion and talking about abortion openly within the work that I was doing with the communities I was doing it, that really changed my own perspective and I think helped me kind of, like, what's the word? Like, start looking, like maybe changing the stigma that I had felt, and really feel comfortable talking about abortion. So storytelling, like a person having had abortions, and just even going deeper into that. I think I was a young person, I was like 17. Also, a lot of what had to do, weirdly, was, with my abortions, was like my disabilities. And we'll get more into that. But like being disabled, being chronically ill, and immunocompromised like twice, two times, to different chronic illnesses, I think has been really important, like has been a really important identity personally, like inside and outside of repro. And I also identify really strongly with, like, the Latine community, like, Spanish-speaking communities and multilingual communities. I come from a family of immigrants, and I've had… that's, like, something that I've helped my family navigate, like, cultural translation and language translation. And it's also a lot of the work that I've bonded to too within repro. Like, I know that a lot of a lot of those resources for people who need services in languages other than English can be sometimes really difficult to access, or they don't exist, or they're under-resourced. So that's been something that has been really important in my work. And what else? I think also being queer, like that's one of my identities. And I also identify as non-binary.

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  Interviewer: Awesome. Yeah, you brought up a lot of interesting and also complex experiences, too. I guess I wanted to ask you more about kind of going back to how you were saying doing your abortion reproductive justice work kind of helped you, maybe that's not the language that you used, but it sounded like heal around the stigma of your experience.

  Participant: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

  Interviewer: So what kind of like messages or what was the cultural environment around abortion that you received like growing up? And if that, or how did it impact your experience?

  Participant: I think one of the reasons why I got into repro in the first place is because I felt I didn't have a lot of knowledge around it. I was, at the time, I was working for a rape crisis center and I was giving training, like the crisis intervention training, to volunteers. And it, you know, it talks about people who experience sexual violence and how to support them. And one of the sections of that training was abortion. But it was always like a really small slide and like just one single slide. And it was like a really brief like paragraph or something like that. And I just remember always feeling like I didn't know more than what I was reading off, which was like a very superficial understanding of abortion. Or like not really going into abortion, just kind of mentioning, oh, abortion is important within this context. I didn't encounter a lot of experiences with abortion when I was doing that job. So I think that that's probably why they didn't go as in depth, but that's kind of where I was at the time. And I felt like, oh, I don't know a lot about abortion. Like, I want to know how an abortion works, like what kinds of abortions there are. And yeah, like who can do an abortion, maybe a little bit about the history of abortion. And then there's just so much to learn. Like, then you start learning about the legal ramifications of abortion and abortion bans and how that changes, like regionally and state. And yeah, there's just like so much you can learn within abortion. I'm not remembering the question anymore, but I hope that answers it.

  Interviewer: No, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, yeah, I mean, abortion like intersects with like everything. So it's like, yeah, it's a very deep, complex topic. So, but yeah, I guess I wanted to ask you more about your work with doing like the rape crisis centers?

  Participant: Oh, the, you were asking about the messaging that I received. Oh, so growing up, yeah, none, none, I guess. I had an understanding that there was like stigma tied to it. And I think part of it was just witnessing like how pregnancy was kind of framed culturally. Like it's framed… it was always framed to me growing up as like you better not end up pregnant. Like almost like this accusatory way of of talking about about like teen pregnancy. And it just felt like very stigmatized like it stigmatized um not just sex, but I feel like interpersonal relationships with people of different genders. And also just like knowing about your own body. And so yeah, it was just like something that I didn't really know about. I did feel like I was pro-choice, but like I said, I had a lot of stigma. And then when I started volunteering, it just, I learned like, I don't know, just even being with people who welcomed children into the workspaces that I was in, you know, and events and how that was really viewed as normal and as okay and like as important, actually, because abortion is not just about… it's not like anti-children, you know. I think some people might think that, but it's actually more about, I think, autonomy and like people being able to decide how to parent, when to parent, like how to have their families. So that was something that really stood out to me within that. And then also just like storytelling, the importance of storytelling. And yeah, just always the importance of talking about abortion and storytelling because a lot of people feel isolated because of all the stigma. So it's important to, you know, to talk about, I think, if you can, if you want to, to talk about your experience with abortion.

  Interviewer: Yeah, definitely. So you said you learned a lot about, or you wanted to learn a lot about abortion after doing your work at the Rape Crisis Center. But was this after you had your abortion, your first abortion, I'm assuming first abortion experience?

  Participant: Yeah, so my, my abortion experience was when I was like 17. And I was working at the rape crisis center when I was like, I may be between 24 and 26. But a long time had passed. Yeah, I went… like growing up, you know, kind of something that it was like on the surface, you know, different messages, but not really in-depth knowledge. And then even when I went through my own experience with abortion… I wasn't, I don't, I didn't feel in control. I didn't feel knowledgeable. I didn't really feel like I could make a lot of decisions. And it's all, it's, it was kind of like a wild situation, honestly. But yeah, it took a long time for me to like be in a position where I felt more empowered about abortion access and that was in my work.

  Interviewer: I mean, do you want to talk more about your experience, your abortion experience, and then also like maybe what kinds of support you had during the time, if you had any at all?

  Participant: Yeah, so my abortion experience was when I was like 17, 18. I was... So there's just like so much to it, but okay. So I was seeing someone… and I guess I word it as seeing someone, but this was like a relationship that was, that had like a big like power dynamic to it. So I used that like seeing someone loosely. And so yeah, I was seeing this person that was much older than me. And it was like the first person that I had sex with. And they had told me… we were together for like a year. It was like long distance for the most part, but we still did see each other like a few times throughout the year. And they had a son. And so they said, you know, I have a son, like I am fully aware of like the responsibility that it takes to have children. And I don't want any children. Like I had a vasectomy. And that wasn't true. They didn't have a vasectomy. And we were having unprotected sex the whole time. And so I did end up getting pregnant a few times. It was just so confusing to me because, okay, so now I'm going to kind of back up a little bit more and talk about disability. So I was diagnosed with arthritis and Graves' disease when I was like probably 14, 15, 16. I was like going to the hospital really frequently and trying different medications. I took radiation for one of them. And these are like chronic illnesses that need to be managed like for your entire life. So I started, that was like when I started taking medication. And one of the medications that I took for arthritis is called, that I used to take, is called methotrexate. And after … like I took it for a long time. You know, they told me like, oh, if you ever want to get pregnant, like, you can't take this medication. That's what they told me, like when I was a kid, you know. And then fast forward to like the situation that I was telling you about, I was still taking methotrexate. So even though we were having unprotected sex, I wasn't getting pregnant like every opportunity that I had, necessarily. But because I was also young… and this is not just like having to do with being young. I feel like as a disabled person, my experience with taking my medication like really fluctuates a lot. So at that time, especially because it was so new and I didn't understand it and I like had a really difficult relationship with taking my medication, I wouldn't take it. A lot of the times I would just like not take it for weeks on end. And so there would be times… I remember one time I like, I was like, oh my God, am I pregnant? I don't remember why like what made me think, but I took a pregnancy test and I took like 10 pregnancy tests and there was positive positive positive. And I was like, oh my God, I'm pregnant like what the what the fuck? You know like this person told me they had a vasectomy. This can't be. This doesn't make any sense. Like it was… I couldn't accept it. I just didn't want it to be true. And I was like, no, this, this, like, this can't be, you know? And then I, I tried to take, like, to make myself like a tea, like, like an oregano and like, maybe like cinnamon or something like that, like, I don't know, something that I had found online for like an herbal remedy for abortion. And I took that. And later, I did more tests and I wasn't pregnant anymore but I don't really know that the tea worked. I think if anything I probably started taking my medication in between and that's what made me be not pregnant. But from my perspective it was like, oh, I was never pregnant . Like I couldn't tell. Does that make sense?

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  Interviewer: Like you were like you're so early on in the pregnancy like you couldn't tell?

  Participant: Well, I couldn't tell because the pregnancy… well, first of all, this person that I'm seeing told me they have a vasectomy. So how can you get pregnant? Right? And then you're getting a pregnancy test and like, being in denial about it. And then all of a sudden, you're not pregnant anymore. I didn't really know that my medication, the methotrexate that I was taking is used for abortion in some cases. So for years I didn't know that like the whenever I started taking my medication again that would prevent a pregnancy. So it was like confusing. Like I just felt like, oh, I was never pregnant. But I was, you know.

  Interviewer: Did you have like a miscarriage or like would you have like a heavy period after that or do you remember any kind of like heavy bleeding or anything like that afterwards?

  Participant: I don't remember. I don't remember any of that, no. And and if I did, like I wouldn't probably have registered as a miscarriage you know? And yeah, so it's like such a situation where it's like no understanding or… it felt like, in retrospect talking about it, it sounds like a situation where agency wasn't had for several reasons. Like I feel like doctors didn't really explain to me like this is used for abortion. They just said like if you're taking it you can't get pregnant. That's not the same thing as this will cause an abortion. Especially to a kid who's like not thinking about pregnancy at the time you know? I feel like having, not having a lot of understanding about my medications and things like that led to things being unclear. This person lying to me also made things confusing. And I mean, if I did so many pregnancy tests, like it was, and they all came out positive, like I feel like that in and of itself, you can't get, I don't think you can get that many false positives, you know? And like, they're, they're made to detect like a certain hormone in your body. So it's like, they, that hormone was getting detected. Um, but at the end of the day, I was like, oh, I was never pregnant, I don't know what happened. Um, so, so yeah, it was, it was like a wild situation. And it was not until years later that I like was researching methotrexate and I saw that sometimes it's used for abortion, so I guess that's, that's what was happening the whole time.

  Interviewer: Yeah, I guess I'm not familiar with methotrexate. That's why it wasn't I was not sure that or I did not know that it's also used for for abortion.

  Participant: I don't I don't think it's like super common. Um, but and probably less now. But um, but yeah, that's that's what I saw online that it that it was used for abortion.

  Interviewer: So would you say that you self-managed your own abortion then, like not knowing –

  Participant: That's what I think I… yeah, I think that's what happened. So I don't know. The thing about this is like, I identify that experience like this as this person like violating my boundaries and for other reasons, in addition to like what I have shared. Like not only were they much older than me, but they lied. So we were having sex under like, not… the information that they had given me was not true. So to me, that's like a huge violation. And so that, yes, I consider that as like self-managing some of my abortions. And about… so like I said, we're together for like a year, year and a half, long distance mostly. Towards… when I graduated from high school, I was like 18 at that point, I moved cities. So I moved to the city where this person I was seeing was located in. And that's when the relationship got like really abusive, like in a lot of like emotionally and like physically and like also sexual abuse. Even though I feel like that was going on the whole time, just because of the age difference and because of the lying. It's like a type of reproductive coercion. But… because if a person is like trying to get you pregnant without your consent, without your knowledge, like that's reproductive coercion to me. So when I moved to the same city as them, I was asking them… I guess part of me was not thinking too deeply about these things. So then we started using condoms. And so part of me, like as I'm saying this, I'm like, oh, I probably felt like I had been pregnant. Like, you know, like this gray area that I wasn't asking myself a lot of questions about it. I was just moving forward with things that, you know, were in front of me at the time. And so, but then I was like, okay, we have to use condoms now. And he would take off the condom without my consent. And that's another time that I got pregnant. And that time, I guess I wasn't taking my medication. I didn't know that the medication could do that. I just wasn't taking it for like a long time, I guess for like a month or two or more. And that's when I was pregnant… I went, I think I found out because I was just going through to like a physical, like a regular physical, and the doctor's like, oh, you're pregnant. I'm like, I was so confused. I think I was still in my head was like… I guess maybe the condoms were not necessarily for pregnancy, but maybe also for like other protection like STIs. But in my head, I was like, I can't get pregnant, it was so confusing to hear that. And so, yeah, I found out I was pregnant. And then I was like in the doctor's office and then she was like, oh, here's like a brochure… basically telling me like, this is a brochure of where you can get an abortion. Which like, I kind of felt, I don't know. It at the moment, like, I felt like she was kind of telling me to get an abortion or like assuming that of course I was going to get an abortion. But, you know, at the same time, it's like, okay, well, it is important that you at least offer it as an option. But I think too, it's like, if you're a doctor, you're seeing this young person, I think having a deeper conversation, maybe not like an hour-long conversation, right, within the consultation, but providing some support, I think, you know, would have been, would have been good, would have been helpful. I just felt really alone at that time. There was no one else I could, no one I could talk to at all. And I felt like this doctor was just like, okay, go get an abortion. And I was like, I don't even know if I want to get an abortion. Like, you know, you start asking yourself, you start considering that. And so yeah, I just felt like, confused, not knowing really what to do, not having a lot of experience. And I remember that was like, okay, then I guess I have to do this. And I booked an appointment at a clinic and I remember like getting, I think it was like $400 or something like that. And I remember just like having the money in my hand, which is a lot. Like it's a lot now, it was probably more then. And-

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  Interviewer: So you got a procedural abortion during this time?

  Participant: Yeah, I did. I did, which, I hate to say it, but it was kind of traumatizing.

  Interviewer: Why do you hate to say it?

  Participant: I hate to say it because I don't want to ever discourage anyone from having an abortion or scare anyone about having an abortion. Because a lot of the people that I've talked to in my work, that's one of their concerns. Like, oh, is it going to hurt? How is it going to feel? How long does it take? It's scary. Like I feel like medical procedures, generally speaking, are scary. And especially one that's very stigmatized. So I don't want, I would never want anyone to hear my story and be like, oh, you know, I'm not going to have an abortion because it's going to hurt. It's just a different experience for everyone.

  Interviewer: Yeah, it's tough. It's tough because it's like, the narrative is like, we have to be so pro-abortion in a sense that we can't share the pain or harm that we receive during our abortion experiences, you know? So, cause that could alter the narrative or the culture around abortion access, so.

  Participant: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, so I went to Planned Parenthood. I really only knew that that was an option. Like I didn't know then of any other option. If you would have asked me… like the amount of information that I learned from working at the abortion fund, it's like so vast, you know, about resources and like getting an abortion paid for and having an Uber pick you up, like all of these things, having someone bring you food, you know, somebody accompanying you. I didn't have any of that. I didn't know any of that existed. And it was such a shameful thing for me that I didn't tell anybody. I did tell the person who got me pregnant. And I was really upset, you know, and I think, I don't know, I just, for me it was really painful because I was like, like emotionally, because I'm like, why would this person want to get me pregnant? You know, like, and that doesn't make any sense to me. And it wasn't until years later that I'm like, oh, this is reproductive coercion and this is a form of control. It wasn't like they wanted to build a life with me or something. It was like, they wanted a way to control me. Um, and so I went in, and by the time I went in, I think, I think the pregnancy was like around 10 weeks is what I imagine based on what I remember. Because I know that they told me that I couldn't do the abortion pill anymore. So I think maybe 10 weeks or more. That's usually when they don't allow you to do it anymore. And they're like, oh, do a procedural one instead. It depends on the clinic, but it's like pretty common. And so I was like, oh, I didn't really want to do a procedural abortion. And I think I didn't have enough money probably for like any pain medication or sedation. So I was doing it with no sedation. And it was really painful. Like I was actively crying and sobbing as the abortion was happening. And I just remember being in this room, I think there were like two people, like probably the doctor and maybe an assistant or two doctors, I don't know. And I was just crying because it hurt. And I was also like, emotionally distraught, you know, so it was like a lot. It was a lot. And also, it's not a great, it just wasn't a great experience. Like the way that the doctor kind of wasn't supportive, you know, kind of encouraged me to get an abortion, even though that's what I did at the end of the day, like, I kind of felt like a little stereotyped. At least that's how I felt in that moment. And then when you go into the clinic, like, hearing that you can't get a medication abortion sucks, because it's like, you can't even choose the type of procedure you get. That sucks. And then when you go in, it's kind of like an assembly line, like they put you in a room with like a group of people and you all kind of go through different like parts of the abortion process. You know, part of it is like you you're waiting, then you go into to get the aspiration where they're removing the pregnancy from your uterus. That's like you're just in there with the doctors. And then after that you go to recovery. And I just remember being surrounded by like all these other people who I didn't know. And it just you know I just I just felt like a lonely process. Like a like, I don't know it just it wasn't like a fond memory that I have you know. It just felt like a cold process. Like a hard process, it was like a painful process. And all of these confusing factors that I've mentioned so far. You know it's just like I was also living out on my own for the first time. I had just graduated high school and I was working part-time and going to school and like paying my rent and away from my family, which was also like another really difficult thing for me. And yeah, I just remember like being like, okay, I'm going to do this and then it's going to be done and then I'm just going to move on. And like I said I didn't tell anyone and you know went back to work whenever my next shift was. And um yeah that was that was really hard. I wish I wish I had had a lot some of the resources that I have been able to offer to people um at that time, you know as a young person, as a person who was alone. That would have been, yeah, I think that would have just been really helpful, would have changed my experience. But also it's been really fulfilling to know that I have been able to offer those resources and be a part of that for other people.

  Interviewer: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it kind of sounds like going back to even like your first abortion experience, that you didn't have really much agency in the second experience either.

  Participant: No, and it was so painful. Like, that's what I remember the most. I'm like, fuck, that was excruciating. Like, I wouldn't… and I think it was because I couldn't afford sedation. You know, which is like, it sucks that it's like, oh, you can't afford sedation. So you're just gonna experience all this pain, and you're probably gonna tie it to this traumatic experience and it's just like pain on top of pain. And somebody should have paid for that. You know, like why are people going through pain because they can't afford a certain medication? Like that's horrible.

  Interviewer: Yeah, that is. Yeah, I mean, and you also talked a lot about how like you're like chronically ill or disabled like identities really informed like your first experience. Does that also come to play in your other experience too with abortion?

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  Participant: I mean, I think just like the medical, just medical related things and doctors and doctor visits and just anything related to that is really stressful for me. Like I feel a huge distrust usually with medical providers. I like to this day, you know, like even doing like when I have gone to see therapists, trying to work with therapists, like having an intake form given to me is like triggering to me. I feel like my experience within my medical history has been like this feeling of being a young person, being diagnosed with like chronic illness, not being explained like, hey, this is a chronic illness, you know? They kind of just tell you like, oh, it's, this is what it's called. This is the medication you're taking and you have to come to the doctor this often. Like they don't really explain to you, I guess how your lifestyle might change. Like, you know. Then there's, and then on top of that, there's like identity politics and, and things like that. So it was, it's a lot for a young person. And I was, I remember when I was going to the doctor, like my mom would always be there with me. Every appointment she would go. She was like the only person who was always there. My sister was off in college. My dad wasn't really like present in that kind of thing. So it was just like me and my mom. And I think it was a lot for her too. And my mom doesn't speak English. So imagine like going as a monolingual Spanish speaker and there's never any translators. And I'm translating for my mom. And I'm also like trying to dissociate because it's like a painful process and like very overwhelming, but about me. And I have to tell my mom about it. And it's like, I'm already probably not asking all the right questions because I'm a kid. And so it's a very stressful environment for me. And I just, it's added to my distrust of medical providers and just feeling like lack of agency and feeling like it's a very cold process, you know, like they're doing a procedure and they're doing, whatever medically they're there to do, and then it's done. Like there isn't this interpersonal part to it. And I mean, I think it's hard to also require that of a doctor, I understand, like in some ways, because not everybody can always be everything. Like we can't be everything to everyone. But nevertheless, it was definitely a big gap in resources and connections and information and things like that.

  Interviewer: Yeah. I was going to ask you too, because you mentioned some other identities that really inform your experiences as being non-binary and being queer. How did your gender and or your sexuality impact, like your abortion experience? Or if it did, if it did at all.

  Participant: At the time, like I don't think it did. I didn't really identify as queer at the time either. I think that as where I am now and like, since I started working within reproductive justice, I always felt like a question in my mind was always like, where are the queer people, the trans people and non-binary people getting abortions? And what is their experience like? Because everything in my work was very binary. Like the language, the partners that we were working with, people themselves, you know, like everything is very binary and it's like everything is framed as like happening to women. And yeah, it's like another way. I think that like this whole abortion thing has been for me like a place where I tended to like dissociate and disconnect and compartmentalize. And I feel like that, like the binaries within those experiences only add to that level of like compartmentalizing and like not feeling embodied within the, I guess, in the process and like the experience.

  Interviewer: So you also, you're saying with like the repro work that you started doing, it was very like binary in these different environments of repro work that you're doing. So like how… can you tell me more about like any early encounter you had with like non-cisgender in like trans community? And maybe if that had an impact on your understanding of your gender?

  Participant: I feel like I started to identify as non-binary and queer within other contexts. I don't really remember what triggered it or anything like that, but it was years before I started working within repro. But I will say that when I was working in repro, a lot of the people that were working with me were queer. And so there was definitely like that camaraderie there and knowing like that the people that I work with are using more open… like language that is more fluid and open, you know, and like understand that there's binaries, but there also is like, we can move away from binaries in order to create a space that's more open to more people. So that's one of the experiences I had with queerness within the work.

  Interviewer: That's awesome. Yeah, I was gonna say too, like the work, I've been doing reproductive justice work for a long time too. And I think every different space I'm in, it's like mostly like queer people. And it's like where is the narrative of all of us doing this work when we're like in the background doing all the, a lot of the heavy lifting of abortion access. But yeah, I guess I want to do a time check. Are you still, do you still have time over the hour or how much more time do you have?

  Participant: I feel like we've had a great conversation and like, I think we can go deeper, but I would like to pause here and maybe pick up on a different day. Would that work?

  Interviewer: Yeah, we could do a part two. Yeah, of course. Yeah, that's why I wanted to do a time check because I know it's like almost the hour is almost up. And yeah, I feel like I still have a lot of questions and I wanna hear a lot more about your experience.

  Participant: Yeah.

  Interviewer: And also we didn't really, we talked a little bit. We started like kind of scratching the surface of like your abortion work, but maybe that could also be talked about in a part two.

  Participant: I mean, yes, like another traumatizing experience that I had was like with my abortion work. That has a lot of parallels to me in my experience with abortion when I was like 17, 18. And like, I was experiencing like housing insecurity and that kind of became like a… it almost like reoccurred in relation to abortion. It was it was, yeah, we can tell us more about that I think in the in part two.

  Interviewer: Okay cool so I'm gonna stop recording then now if that's okay um and then we'll have a part two another time. So thank you.

• Part 2 - View Transcription

  Interviewer: Okay, so my name is Vrindavani and this is the second part of our conversation with P for the Trans Abortions Oral Histories Project. Today is September 30th, 2024. And this conversation is taking place virtually. Okay, so P, I think in our last conversation, you were kind of ending the conversation about another traumatizing experience, but specifically with abortion work. So I don't know if that's a place that you wanna start in this conversation today.

  Participant: Maybe not start there. I think I wanna start a little bit smaller.

  Interviewer: Okay, yeah, is there a place that you wanna start?

  Participant: Do you remember like where we left off last time?

  Interviewer: You were talking about your experience of going through the abortion, the procedural abortion and how traumatizing that was for you and that you said that you don't really like to share that because you're afraid of, or I mean, at least this is how I am interpreting of you know perpetuating like the stigma and like you don't want to also like have people not want to get an abortion because of your traumatizing experience. But you said you were, you didn't have like any kind of anesthesia or any kind of like pain management during your abortion process.

  Participant: Yeah yeah thank you for that. Yeah, that's so true. And it's, it's interesting, because I feel like I've learned… I experienced these really intense things when I was young. And it took me like, probably like 10 years or more to be like, oh, that was fucked up, actually, you know, like, and I feel like it still keeps happening. Like, for example, the thing about the procedure, like I had to have a procedural abortion. That's what they told me, like that was my only option. And clinics can and do decide what types of abortions they do. Like, they need specific doctors, and there's a lot of things. But I think that I did lose that agency. I really thought it was not possible for me to have a medication abortion. But now with the volunteer work that I do with the miscarriage and abortion hotline, we tell people, part of the training is you can get a medication abortion after 12 and 14 weeks. And… you just kind of change the dose of the medication. And so that's been, as of this year that I started volunteering with them, like, I don't know, five months ago or something like that. And when that happened, I was like, oh my gosh, like I was so scared when they told me, because when, when you need an abortion, you know, it's like a very timely thing and it feels very urgent. And so I was like, oh my God, I waited too long, now I'm screwed, I can't even get like the pill. And so yeah, I felt like bad about that. But yeah, with like the volunteer work that I do now, I realized like, oh man, I could have, like I could have gone online. It probably at that time, finding pills online would have been more difficult, but I think it was possible. But I didn't know any of that. I didn't know those were my options.

  Interviewer: That's interesting that you're talking about with medication abortion that you can actually have a successful abortion after 14 weeks, because that's like a lot of the narrative is like 10 weeks, 10 weeks, 10 weeks, or even like 12, I think in some places.

  Participant: Yeah, I think like the World Health Organization has like something between like around 12 or 10 or 14, one of those. And that's kind of like the recommendation that people go by, doctors and stuff like that. Um, but yeah, and you know, when, where there's bans, abortion bans, like people sometimes… imagine you need an abortion in like a banned state, you need to travel, or that's an option to travel to another state that does abortions. So all of that, like the cost is just so much. You need like hotels, you know, a flight, Maybe if your companion is going, that's like another flight. Food, maybe childcare, you're missing work, like the cost plus the abortion, you know. And another, like people, a lot of people don't know that they can use abortion pills that they get online. And they don't have to do that. And I feel like not all repro organizations necessarily tell that to people. And I'm not saying like they're doing it on purpose or like they, you know, it might just be like, I don't know. I don't really know what it is. Maybe like a, it might be like the influence of that narrative of like pills can only go up to a certain point. But I think right now is really important for people to know that that is an option. And that could save them a lot of money, and it could also give them agency if that's what they want to do. And there are legal risks, you know, there, there are still legal risks, but I feel like, you know, everybody can make their own decisions and it has to assess their safety. But I feel like it kind of reduces a lot of the steps, you know, if you compare it to like getting a proceed… like if they tell you you need a procedural abortion, then that is stressful because, not because of the procedural abortion, but because it's like, now you have to do this exact procedure. And you think that's what you have to do. And so you're going to go out of your way, do all these things, like miss work, you know, maybe you have to leave your children, or you're bringing your children. And maybe if you want a companion, you know, like you need medication and you're going to be in a new city. And that could be really scary.

  Interviewer: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I was I was wanting to like, talk to you more about this procedural abortion experience that you were talking about. Was this around the same time that you were having this relationship with this person that abused you?

  Participant: Yeah, yeah. It was, I mean, yeah, they were the ones who basically said that they had a vasectomy and didn't. And also like when I said, like, let's use barriers, they would remove the barriers without my consent, without like me knowing. And that's how I ended up getting pregnant. Yeah. And that's… and because of the past time, when I also got pregnant, and in my opinion, and I was taking my medication, the mesotrexate that I think was like ending the pregnancies early, like very early on, I felt like, oh, it must be true what he's saying, because I haven't gotten pregnant, you know? But because I wasn't taking my medication, I was like, stop taking it. Then like, that's when I did get pregnant. It was just like, I didn't know like what to expect. I didn't even know that was something I had to be careful about.

  Interviewer: And this is also like when you were like 18 years old?

  Participant: Yeah. Yeah. It was this… everything happened when I was… like that that relationship started when I was like 17 and ended when I was 18. It was like a year, year and a half.

  Interviewer: Were you getting any kind of support around that time for like being in this abusive relationship or like what was like your community or your support looking like around this time?

  Participant: It was really hard because I had moved out of my parents' house and it was like, that was really weighing on me, because I think my parents had like a traditional mindset where they're like, oh, you know, you don't leave the house until you get married, even though they wouldn't frame it like that. But I feel like that's kind of the expectation. You don't just like leave, you know, to live on your own. Like, why would you do that? And so I remember when I was leaving… I had for years, I had told my parents like, I'm gonna move back to Chicago because we were living in Houston. And I was like, I'm gonna move back to Chicago. And I feel like they never took it seriously or didn't like really listen, you know? And so when we were leaving, we were driving to Chicago because my sister was graduating. And I just put all my stuff in the car, like all the stuff I was taking, like all my clothes and stuff. And I'm like, yeah, well, I'm gonna leave and I'm just not gonna come back. And they were like, why are you doing this to us? And I think that's, I mean, you know, like I can accept that it can be a painful process for any parent. But it was also, you know, a painful process for me and I carried that for a really long time. I was so sad. I was like, oh my God, like, I was really going back and forth between like having a relationship with my family and also wanting like a family, wanting to be like doing Christmas together and like birthdays and stuff like that. And we never did those things. Like the, you know, birthdays always get acknowledged, but I don't know. It was like very, I guess distant is a good word. You know, where everybody was kind of in their own world. Like my sister was in college. And her, she, I would say she was part of my community, like my, there was family members. Like I lived with one of my cousins for some time too when I moved to Chicago. But they didn't know any of that. I didn't tell any, like absolutely anybody, except the person who got me pregnant. That's it. And until, you know, like many years later. So I kind of just, I feel like I compartmentalized it. I never felt like I regretted it. It never felt like I did something wrong. I think it was more like feeling shame because of what other people would think. And I think that's a lot of what happens to people seeking abortion. Like they… it's an isolating process because of the judgment that people put on you, you know? And so that makes everything more difficult because like you don't tell anybody anything and that means you're not asking for help. So yeah.

  >>>>[ Audio Time: 11:34 ]<<<<

  Interviewer: Yeah, so your experiences then was happening in Chicago and you moved there, you said… was your sister in Chicago or did you have anybody else in Chicago with you?

  Participant: Yeah, so I grew up in Chicago and then my parents moved to Houston when I was like 16. And so I lived there for like three years and then I graduated and came back to Chicago. So I had family here. My sister, especially, like her and I did Christmas. And she would bring me groceries. She was definitely very supportive. And it was a very sweet relationship at the time, like the way that I remember that time fondly and stuff. Yeah, so I was here. The first, I would say the first year of the relationship, I was living in Houston and I met this guy because I came to Chicago on vacation, like to visit family. And then we met and that's when we started being together. And then it was like long distance, but we would like see each other sometimes. So that's when I would end up pregnant and like the whole thing, everything that I told you about what happened. And then I moved to Chicago and that's when things got worse. Like he was extremely sweet the whole year. He would send me gifts all the time and we would talk on the phone like every single day and he was just like very sweet to me. And the day that I moved to Chicago, he changed like immediately. Like he didn't wanna spend any time with me. He was just like really verbally abusive and like controlling and then it was just, it's so hard when you don't know what to look for. You know, like you don't know the red flags to look for or, or maybe you grew up with like relationships that are not healthy, like being normalized. So I just thought like, this isn't him because he's been nice to me this whole year, right? So it's like, oh, he's just mad or, or it was my fault or something. Some, some reason that I'm like, no, I know he's sweet. I know that person is in there. But I don't know, I feel like he hated me like as soon as I moved here, which I don't understand. Yeah.

  Interviewer: That's, yeah, that's awful. And you said you moved to Chicago and you moved in with this person?

  Participant: I moved in with my cousins first. Then I moved out of her house and I moved in with him for like maybe three months or something. And then I had, because I was scared of my parents finding out that I was living with him, even though I was like not living with them anymore, I just, it was just like a lot of judgment and expectations, I think, culturally. So I rented like a, a room, let's say, let's call it a room in, on the same block, actually. It was a room in an attic, basically it was like an attic and with like insulation, like drywall and, you know, a door, but it didn't have like a bathroom. It was just like one little room. So I like had that as like a, oh, this is where I live kind of thing. And like rent was really cheap because it wasn't really a place to live, but I was living with him, basically. And I would just go to that. It was like two, three houses down. I would go there and get clothes and stuff like that. I was just going to say that then basically when things got really, really bad, we broke up and I was asking like, oh, you know, can I use your bathroom? Like I don't have a fucking bathroom in my house. And he said yes. And but then he would like, not let me in sometimes. Or like I remember one time, I think I was getting ready and it was like snowing a lot and I had to go to work. And I had to wear like a uniform to work. So I was wearing my snow boots but then I had my shoes with me but I forgot them in his house and I guess I didn't have a key and so I was knocking for like 15 minutes and I was like please like I just need my shoes, like I'm waiting for the bus. And he was just like ignore me and then I remember he like threw my shoes at me. And so that's kind of when I had to move into that space full time. And I remember when I came to Chicago, right, after graduating, like three months earlier, let's say, I was looking at places. And that was one of the ones that I saw. And there was like one of the neighbors, like the downstairs lady, she's like, oh, you can use my bathroom. If you live here, you can use my bathroom. Because she had, she was like the, the, the owner's daughter, I mean, uh, sister. So she was like, you can use my bathroom. And I was like, I, okay, that's great. Thank you. But then I didn't end up moving there. Right? Not right away. Cause I live with my cousin. Then when I did move in, when I rented it, uh, I was, you know, living with the person who was my boyfriend at the time. And then when that ended, I was like, fuck, I really have to just live here now. And what am I going to do about the bathroom? So I'm like, okay, thank God this lady, like, she was cool about it. And so I was like, hey, you know, I really need to use the bathroom. Like, is that okay? Like, do you still feel you know, you can do that? She's like, no, no, I can't do that anymore. Like, basically, no. And I was like, fuck, like, that really sucks. So um, yeah, for for some time, I was like, I remember I used to go to like the Dunkin Donuts that was like in the corner and I would like brush my teeth there and like wash my face before school. And like they never gave me a hard time or anything. I wouldn't go like every day. I think I would find like different places to do that. And then I remember like I learned how to like, I guess like take a shower in my little room, like mainly wash my hair. In my little room, I would have like this, like a little tub, like a, let's say one foot by one foot, something like that, like a like a little container. And I would buy like gallons of water, and I would wash my hair and dry it and stuff. Because I didn't have a bathroom. And after some time, I remember that there was a man who lived in the basement, who I think was also a relative of the owner. And he lived alone. He was like an older man, like late 60s maybe. And he was so nice to me. Like, one time he asked me, like, if, you know, if I was living there, if I had a, because he knew there wasn't a bathroom there, or they were like building it, but it wasn't built. And I was like, yeah, and I don't have a bathroom, like the lady upstairs said I could use it, but then she said no. And then he let me use his bathroom. He was like, you can use my bathroom, like just whenever you need it, just come and knock on the window. He lived in the basement. And so I would knock like at seven, seven in the morning and then he would open the door for me. And his place and my place were just like kind of awkwardly built, you know, where it was just like a big ass room, like a big ass rectangle kind of thing. So it wasn't like, oh, there's a separate room there, you know, but luckily his place did have like a separation between the bedroom and the kitchen, and the bathroom area was in the bedroom. So he would actually be like, I'm going to go to the kitchen while you take a shower. And he never did anything creepy ever, which I'm so grateful for. But yeah, that was hard. I think at the time, it wasn't. But now thinking about it and remembering that, it's like, it just, it was so unnecessary for me to go through all that, you know, like, it was just like the circumstances. Um, yeah. And I remember if it was like in the winter, so it was like Christmas and I, I bought him a sweater. Um, and I gave it to him. I was like, oh, Merry Christmas. And he like cried. He was so emotional. And I was like, oh, thank you. You've done like so much for me. And yeah, that was, that was, I don't know. I feel like I got really lucky and yeah, I feel just really grateful that I found like a really kind person at that time.

  >>>>[ Audio Time: 20:59 ]<<<<

  Interviewer: Yeah. I mean, that sounded like your support system right there, like unintentionally, but, but also this person seemed like he needed that support too, you know, like even helping you out, maybe he felt like he was in community with you in some way.

  Participant: Yeah.

  Interviewer: Yeah. So how long was that, were you in that location? Cause I know you mentioned that you were dealing with like housing insecurity.

  Participant: And that's what I consider housing insecurity. Like my housing wasn't appropriate housing, you know? Like I didn't have the things that I needed. Like it's not even a legal apartment. I don't know. I don't know, I think it was like a few months. Like it definitely felt like way longer, but I think it was like a few months.

  Interviewer: Yeah. I mean, that sounds really awful to having to deal with all that. And like, I mean, I'm in California, so we don't have snow really. So I can't imagine like going through all these other like weather changes and having to try to find a bathroom and take a shower and things like that too. And then always having all your things with you that you need for the bathroom.

  Participant: Yeah, and I was like going to school and working and commuting, you know, and eating… I think I was just eating like out every single day because I didn't have a kitchen either. And like I said, at the time, it didn't feel traumatic, it just felt like, I guess I would get sad, you know, at certain situations, but then it would pass. I feel like it took years, many years for me to, like, learn about housing insecurity. Like, what does that mean? You know, what does it mean for someone to experience housing insecurity? And you know, through the years, just kind of being like, oh, that happened to me. You know, like I was a young person who need who needed access to abortion and, coincidentally around the same time, I was also facing housing insecurity. And I feel like when you start learning more about things, like how people are impacted, like marginalized people, you know, and then I think back to my situation, I just think like it feels like a statistic a little bit, you know. But I think that that's just like quantifying like the ways that people are marginalized. And, and it's true, you know, like how young people, um, go through housing insecurity a lot of the times for things. I don't know, for being queer, you know, for, um, being in abusive relationships and, you know, whatever the situation is.

  Interviewer: And you were also like disabled too at this time, right? Like you were still, were you dealing with your arthritis and you said Graves disease too?

  Participant: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, I was diagnosed when I was 16. But I think I had it since I was like, 12. 11, or 12. Because I remember I used to have so much pain in my joints. And they would be swollen. And it was like difficult to walk. So for years, that was like the thing. And then finally, when I was diagnosed, then I started to receive treatment, which started helping but like, in like, for for a time there, I was going to the doctors like every single week, when they diagnosed me first and were like treating me and figuring things out and stuff like that. So yeah, I, during this time, like, yeah, I was I was still going through that. Like, I still have those chronic illnesses. And I also wasn't taking my medication, which has also a big impact that I didn't really understand at the time. And like the older I get, the more that I like start to understand what happens when, you know, my medication schedule gets disrupted. When I… you know, sometimes it's like I lose my insurance because I lost my job and I have to start over or something like that. You know, that throws off that and then that in turn like affects how you are, how you are interpersonally, how you feel, what you can do and things like that.

  Interviewer: And during like this time of like dealing with like housing insecurity, did you have like access to healthcare with your job or what was your healthcare situation and employment?

  Participant: No. I didn't have health care for a few years when I moved to Chicago. I remember when I had moved, my mom's like, oh, go, have you gone to the doctor? Like go to this doctor that we used to go to when you were little. And I do remember him. And I went and I was paying out of pocket. And he was so nice. He was like another one of my little like guardian angels. Because he knew that I was, you know, disabled and needed like blood work regularly and, you know, medications and stuff. And he would be like, oh, you should go, go to Rush, like that hospital. They have like a program where you can like get assistance with paying for it. So I did end up doing that. But before that, he would help me… I don't know what he did on the back end, but he would not charge me the entire amount. Somehow, he would do something so that… I mean, it was his practice, but he used different resources that he had so that I didn't have to pay the full amount. So he saved me hundreds, hundreds, hundreds of dollars. And I was still paying between 150 and 300 each appointment that I was going to him, but I didn't have to go, maybe just like a few times a year, something like that. So he was definitely someone who helped me a lot.

  Interviewer: That's awesome that you were able to like go back and get that kind of support. And so I kind of wanted to go back to, if this is okay, talking about your repro justice kind of work, because you mentioned on the other interview that we did that you worked for the rape crisis centers. So you… are currently, are you working for like a miscarriage and abortion hotline?

  Participant: I'm a volunteer for that hotline. And I also volunteer with All Options on their talk line, providing emotional support for people who have had abortions or are considering an abortion, or even people who want to be parents that call. Different people on the spectrum of pregnancy, and we provide peer-to-peer counseling.

  Interviewer: How did you get involved into that kind of work?

  Participant: It all started in 2019, basically. That's when I was like, I don't know a lot about abortion, And so I'm going to start doing, I'm going to start learning. And so that's when I started taking like any workshop that I could find. And then I started to see more, like the algorithms started to show me more things. And that's when I start… like the first organization that I volunteered with was All Options. And then I started volunteering with Chicago Abortion Fund. And then I also volunteered with this other text line called Exhale. And they do… I mean, they're really cool too. They do like, they support people of different faiths, and actually have like people of their faith provide counseling. You know, if you have like a specific faith, they will connect you to another person, like a like somebody from, like if you go to church, like they'll connect you with like a priest who can counsel you who is on board, you know it's not going to be judgmental and can talk to you. So I think that's really cool. So I did that for some time and that's yeah that's how I got started. And then you know the the M&A line, the miscarriage and abortion hotline, that is more recent. But I had been seeing them pop up and seeing their work and I think they're really cool. That's where I learned, you know, that you can do a medication abortion after 12 weeks.

  >>>>[ Audio Time: 30:01 ]<<<<

  Interviewer: Okay, and have you ever got paid for this work, doing like abortion work?

  Participant: When I was with Chicago Abortion Fund, they did give us a stipend. With All Options, they recently started giving us a stipend, if you're bilingual, as like an incentive so that, you know, so that there could be more of that support for people who call. That's pretty much it. Yeah, those are the two that have given stipends.

  Interviewer: That's that's great. Like, yeah, because a lot of a lot of these funds like they they run on like volunteer, so, but I know there's like also like money in these fundings that they can actually provide like stipends or money for people that volunteer. So, yeah, that's great. Yeah I guess I am trying to I'm trying to figure out with them how much time we have left and like what else you would like to to really talk about. Maybe there are other topics that we didn't get to talk about that you would like to share?

  Participant: Yeah I mean I could talk a little bit about my experience with working with the Abortion Fund. I started volunteering with Chicago Abortion Fund in 2019. And I started to work with them, I think it was 2020. Part time. Yeah, I started working them part time. And then I started working full time eventually. And they did like definitely pay fairly. I feel like it was like they definitely had like a generous benefits package and and everything. You know, I really, I feel like in that sense, like it really felt like the abortion fund was living, like the, like practicing the, the values of reproductive justice and like autonomy and things like that. Especially with all the experiences that I told you about, you know, like being able to support myself and doing really amazing work that helped me like be like destigmatize a lot of what I thought about abortion and how I felt about abortion. And so that that was really powerful to be able to do that. Yeah.

  Interviewer: Yeah, how was being in community with folks at the Chicago Abortion Fund? Was there like other like queer trans people working there at the time?

  Participant: Yeah, definitely. Like everybody, for the most part, almost everybody was like a person of color and queer. So that was also really cool. Like a lot of people were like abolitionists, and that was also amazing. You know, I just felt so lucky to be surrounded with people who have similar values to me because that's not something you easily find everywhere. You know, like people who believe in abolition. So to find so many people like that in one place, it just felt like, I felt really like safe. And just like I belonged there and really just like grateful. And that was great, like a great part of it. But it was still like a really difficult job, you know? It's definitely been like for the first couple years. And for most of the time that I was working there, I feel like it was like my favorite job that I've had because, not that I love work, but I was supporting people seeking abortion care, after having my own experience with seeking abortion care, not understanding, not having access, experiencing like this abusive relationship and then housing insecurity, like all these things. And I didn't have any support. So like to be able to create, like be a part of that network of care that does offer those things to people, like every day. Every day I was talking to people who I was getting them a plane ticket, I was helping them find childcare, I was sending our pledge to the abortion clinic because they needed help paying for it. And so, yeah, that was my life. And it felt really empowering and really important. And I still believe that it is. The work that abortion funds are doing is really important and crucial. And at the same time, it is really difficult work because I think any job where you're doing like intensely emotional work, and that's all you do, like almost 100% of the time, or let's say 70% of the time, it does wear you down, you know? It's like when I was working at the Rape Crisis Center like years before that, I mean, I also loved that job and all the people that I connected with through it. But it's like, I know I would talk to my friends who were counselors and it's like all of their clients were people experiencing like complex trauma, you know? And it's like every single day you're working with people who, you know, have complex trauma and you're kind of experiencing vicarious trauma too. So I feel like working at the Abortion Fund, it did require, it was like a very demanding job. And I mean, I felt that I had a lot of agency in the way that I supported people. And that also mattered to me, you know, to be able to be like, I… this organization trusts me with my decision about how to support this person who I've been talking to and connecting with them. I'm trying to understand what's going on and help them in the ways that they're asking me to. So that felt really great. And then I think once Roe fell, things really changed at that point. So I was doing that work, and then Roe fell, and the work became extremely complex. So before, it was like mostly we were sending pledges to abortion clinics. So people would call the hotline or the talk line, I'm sorry, the helpline. People would call the helpline and be like, hey, I need money to pay for my abortion. The majority of calls were like that. Some people, maybe they needed a bus ticket from like Indiana to Chicago. You know, so some was complex travel, but local, almost like in the Midwest, kind of. And then once Roe fell, then we had people from all over the country traveling either to Chicago or other states where abortion was accessible. And it honestly, it didn't even, almost didn't even matter where they went, as long as they were going somewhere where it was accessible. Like it wasn't even about what's closer to you. It's like whatever made sense for that person. Like if that person had a family in a certain state they might choose that state versus one that might be closer to them. So yeah, you have to like navigate all of that. You know figure out which is like the perfect way to go about this for this person. And you're making you know like arrangements for travel, hotel, maybe an Uber for when they get to the airport so they can be taken to their hotel. Maybe they need to be, you know Ubers the whole time that they're in the city basically going to their appointments, going back to the hotel, maybe getting medication, like all of that, you're basically coordinating and, you know, documenting all of that and making sure that they get the money so that… because if you don't, like a person can get stranded in a city that they've never been to. And that's, that's horrible. Um, so yeah, it be it became like a very demanding job. And I think at that time, I wasn't like doing so great health wise and so it was it was a really difficult time because that's when like a lot of different things got implemented by the organization. Like there was a huge shift, which makes sense you know because like Roe fell. Our budget kept growing for how we were supporting people. And then they began to implement different schedules, and more people were going to be hired. And so a lot was changing at once. Which is difficult, but you definitely try to work with it. And also, I would also try to let them know, hey, this is really hard. Like the schedule is really difficult. You know, like as a neurodivergent person, like to have a schedule that changes each month from like, I don't know, let's say 8am to 4pm. And then like the next month, it will be like 11am to 7pm. And then on different days. And, you know, that really throws me off. And it takes me a while to adjust. And so once I adjust, then it changes, and then it throws me off, and then I have to adjust. All of that affects my sleeping schedule, and when I eat, when I take my medication, things like that. So that was just one of the things. And I told them, this is really hard for me. I requested reasonable accommodations. And so a lot of times what will happen in jobs when you request reasonable accommodations is that they will get stalled like indefinitely. You know, they're just quote-unquote processing it. In my case, which also happens, you get fired. So instead of giving me reasonable accommodations, they wanted to fire me. And they said, you're just not doing great with your job right now. And they said, we know you can improve. So we're going to put you in a performance improvement plan for 30 days. And so you have 30 days, you know? And then we'll see what happens. So they put me in a performance improvement plan. It was, I don't know, it was one of the most horrible experiences that I've had in a job. It felt like harassment. Because I think what happened was they just decided that they wanted to fire me. And then they're like, we can't just fire them, even though they could, because it's an at-will state. They can fire whenever they want for no reason, basically. But they're like, no, let's put them on a performance improvement plan, then let's fire them. And the reason why I think that is because when they fired me, they gave me like a, they called it a severance package, but it was really like a non-disclosure agreement. But there, they put the dates of when I stopped working there and it was… they were like dates earlier than… like, for example, if it was October 30th, they had put like October 21st. So what I saw happened was they created the paperwork in advance of firing me. And then, you know, while the performance improvement plan happened, like sometimes things would get delayed. So it's like, oh, we're not gonna meet this week, we're gonna meet next week. And so they never changed the date on it. But that showed me that they had already decided to fire me before the performance improvement plan was implemented. And then they still told me, like, we believe… we're going to give you a chance, and we believe you can improve. But it wasn't true. It was just, I guess, to cover their ass. And it also, the other reason why I feel like it was just, like, performative is because my manager was harassing me that whole month. Like my stress levels, you know, on top of the health things I was already going through, right? That were making… the health things were making my life really hard. The job changes were making my job really hard. And then my manager was harassing me. So it was just like horrible. It was so horrible. And I remember I would, we had like chats together, you know, where we would talk about work and other stuff. And I remember I would put, cause we would always check in in the morning and say how you're doing. And if I would say that I wasn't doing okay, that I could receive some support, that I had a rough week, they would basically like scold me for that. Like that's not appropriate, this is work, you can't be doing that. It's… they like never wanted me to… they wanted me to experience everything in isolation. And so whenever I kind of broke that, they would penalize me. And they would penalize everything. Like everything that I did was put under a microscope. And meanwhile I did not get the reasonable accommodations that I requested. So yeah, meanwhile I was like trying so hard to do things perfectly and it's like anything that I did was always wrong. And yeah, like I said, it was really, it was a really difficult time. Then when they finally fired me, I remember it was just like a meeting, like a Zoom meeting, and they were like, oh, this is not going to take long. And then they said, we're choosing separation. We're going to email you a severance package. And so then, you know, the call ended. And then they sent me like a non-disclosure agreement where they offered me money in exchange to not sue them and not talk about them and not talk about them disparagingly about my experience with the organization. And I told them that I would sign it if they implemented certain things. And one of the things that I asked for was reasonable accommodations for their employees like in a way that is like presumptive eligibility. So they're going to presume that if you are requesting it that you are eligible and give you the reasonable accommodations immediately while you submit the paperwork. Because otherwise you have to submit the paperwork and it takes forever. Like I remember they were requesting my medical records. And because it was such a small organization, like literally, I don't know, like a five person organization, that was like the people that I worked with. And I would say, well, who's gonna look at my medical records? Like, is my boss gonna look at my medical records? And they're like, maybe. They have to have access to them because they're your manager. And I'm like, I don't feel comfortable with that. They're like, well, then do you want to submit the paperwork or not? And so I had to have my doctors write about my mental health, my psychiatrist, my therapist. And I had to send that to them. And, and, and still they did not approve my reasonable accommodation. Um –

  Interviewer: That's awful.

  >>>>[ Audio Time: 46:32 ]<<<<

  Participant: It is. It was it was horrible. And then… so yeah, they fired me, they sent me that, I was like, I'm not going to sign it. Because they're like, no, we're not going to implement the things you asked for. And I'm like, okay, then I'm not signing it. And they kept insisting. Like they would send their lawyers after me, telling me to sign it over and over. And I'm like, I already told you, I'm not going to sign it, unless you implement what I'm asking you for. And then I was like, you guys owe me money, because I was owed my final wages. And I was owed… so a lot of what we did in the organization was we would front the money to grantees. So for example, we would Venmo them $100 or $50 or whatever they needed. And then we would have to track all of those expenses and then get reimbursed by the organization. So at that time… this was like maybe six months worth of reimbursements or something like that. So I was owed like $5,000. And when I submitted all of the paperwork… right before I was fired, I had submitted it like a few weeks before. And the policy was supposedly like, oh, this takes two weeks for us to mail it out. But they never mailed it out. They kept it. Like the check that they wrote, they kept it and they never sent it out. And because I had like equipment from the organization, they were kind of holding it as collateral. I think is what I imagine, you know, because what… or some way to punish me, I guess. And I just kept asking them, like, where's my money? Like, can you can you like tell me when it was sent? And they just like really wouldn't give me like a straight answer. And one time when like their IT person came to my house to reset my computer, basically, they brought me the check then. So that's how I'm like, you guys never sent it. It's been like a month and a half and you just kept my $5,000 because you wanted to? Okay. And you just fired me. Okay well that that's kind of fucked. And then so that's my reimbursement. They're still owing me… at that time they still owed me my final wages. And those were the ones that they did not want to pay. They didn't want to pay me my final wages. They were like like… they would just not respond. I'm like, when are you going to pay me my final wages? I was telling… part of my contract, because I did have a contract with them, said that they couldn't fire me… if I was not good at my job or something happened, they needed to give me 60 days to work it out, basically, to try to improve. But they gave me 30 days instead, and they just violated my employment contract that they wrote. And I would just keep asking them. So they fired me in November. They didn't send me my check until February, no, March, March 6th, I remember. And the only reason why they sent it to me, which was like another $6,000. So they're like withholding like $11,000 at this point of my money, right, after they fired me. So I was like… I looked… the reason why they paid me was because I reported them to the city and the city actually called them. And because they called me the same day and then they called them right away. And I know that because that's the same day that the, that the letter was postmarked. So that's how I know that they only paid me because the city was like, you need to pay them. Legally speaking, you need to pay them. And then the fucked up thing is the city's like, we're not going to take your case. Try to do it with the state instead of the city. They didn't give me a reason why. So they basically warned them. Right? And, and typically in a, in a situation like that, according to my research, like they have to pay you interest. They never paid me interest. And because they didn't take the case, you know, like it just didn't go anywhere. And so it's like, all… I'm going through all this stressful situation, I'm still trying to be like, what are my rights? You know, and it doesn't matter, honestly, like, it doesn't matter, because they're going to violate the law, if they want, they can get away with it. It's not like there's all these free workers rights lawyers, you know? And so they could just do whatever they want. Like, for example, one of the things that I kept asking them for was to off-board me. Because I, to this day, I still, and it's been, they fired me in like 2022, and right now it's 2024, and I still will get a call or a text from grantees asking me, hey, can you help me? I need to get an abortion.

  >>>>[ Audio Time: 52:01 ]<<<<

  Interviewer: So they still have like your contact information in their system?

  Participant: They still have. And I have theirs, which is also fucked because it's like you're not protecting the privacy of grantees. Right? I told them, like, you need to do something about this. And I mean, they just ignored me. They never acknowledged it. I even went to their funder, the National Network of Abortion Funds, and I told them like, hey, this is about grantees. Can you help me? I want to be off-boarded. This isn't good. It's for the privacy of grantees and for mine. And also, it's like when you have such a bad experience with an organization, every text that you get from a grantee is a reminder of that whole situation. So it wasn't good for my mental health. And they just said, we're not going to get involved. Like that's… they have to do that. You know, we're not we're not going to get involved in this. And so like I said, to this day, I have not only the phone numbers and the names, but I have like, with the way that we would save the numbers included, like the appointment date, the weeks that the person was. You know, I have text messages that I had back and forth with grantees. Because I have like, I have like hundreds or thousands of contacts in my phone. So it's like, all of those are people who I helped, because I was using my personal phone for the job. So yeah, that's, like I said, to this day, I still continue to get messages from people, and they think that they're talking to somebody from that organization. And that's just, um, I don't know, I don't I don't think that it's okay to treat people's privacy like that, especially around abortion, especially when there is a lot of bans and fear that people have. I think that that's not… I don't know, that's not centering the needs of grantees or, you know, me. Like, I shouldn't have to deal, I shouldn't have to receive these messages because I can't respond. Like, what do I tell them? You know, like, I'm gonna be engaging with these, with like people on and off. I'm not getting paid for that either. And it's just like, I have, there is like, it's just like, what do you do in that situation?

  Interviewer: Yeah, I was gonna ask you, like, are you answering these calls and like providing support for folks that still call you to this day or?

  Participant: No, no, no. I think in the beginning I did, but like I said, it was very stressful. Like every time I would get a message, it would like just stress me out, you know, and remind me of everything. And I was just trying to like survive at that time. Like my mental health was so bad. Like I was extremely suicidal. It was just like a very difficult time for me. And so yeah, in the beginning I did. But also it's like they told all their employees not to talk to me for legal reasons. So the community, you know how you asked me about community earlier? Like everyone stopped talking to me after that. And so the whole organization ostracized me. So it's like, I can't even, you know, like… I don't know. I… if I was a volunteer, maybe that will make more sense, but because they didn't off-board me and they just ostracized me, it's like, I'm just left with these requests that come in and I can't answer them because I'm not an employee of that organization anymore and no one's paying me for it. And it's just like not a good situation.

  Interviewer: You would think because of all this, I mean, I'm thinking like hostility from your end when how they're thinking about this, like they wouldn't, they shouldn't want your information like out there or have people call or grantees call you, right? Like, I don't know, like that would, I feel like that would be their perspective, right? But like, oh, we don't want this person to be involved with us at all. Let's not have any grantees call them at all, you know? So it's just kind of weird. Like, are you still getting calls to like, to this day?

  Participant: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't happen like every day or even every week. But yeah, I'll get like random calls. And it's also like at any time of the day. It could be like in the middle of the night, a random text. Because it's like people who you worked with in the past and they'll save your number. And they're like, oh, I worked with this person, like I need help again, or my friend needs help. Let me text this person who I already worked with, which makes sense, you know?

  Interviewer: Yeah. Wow, thank you for sharing that story. I mean, and you said now you are still doing volunteer work with the M&A hotline. But yeah, where do you go from here with having those experiences within so-called reproductive justice organizations? How are you feeling now since all that kind of unraveled and put you in a really bad mental health, and I assuming, material, like you probably were also struggling too? Like maybe housing or food because this is like money that you need to survive that they're withholding from you?

  Participant: Yeah I mean you know they kept my money then. I had to fight them to get it back. And they did eventually give it to me. But I mean, it was, like I said, it was a really hard time. I did not start working until like two years later, which is a really long time. And also part of it was like a time that I needed and I think really helped me to have that time. Luckily I was able to get unemployment as well, which I recommend people always, always do. You could even also like go on disability leave and a lot of the times like your job will cover it. Um, but yeah, it was really difficult. Um, I, I remember I had like $8,000 in my bank account, you know, from like the money that they sent me over and stuff. And I, I remember telling myself like… this is where my mental health was at. And I was like, well, I don't have a job. I have $8,000 and like, you know, this is my rent. I, you know, this is going to last me for a few months. And my mental health was so bad that I was like, I'll probably be dead by the time my money runs out. So I don't have to worry about getting a job or anything. Like I'll just, I'll just be dead in like six months or whatever it is.

  Interviewer: And this was back in 2022?

  Participant: Yeah, like 2023, the beginning of 2023.

  Interviewer: And like, where are you now? Like how are you feeling about doing this work now?

  >>>>[ Audio Time: 59:35 ]<<<<

  Participant: I mean, it took me a while. I stopped doing it for like, I guess, for a year, I guess, a year and a half from that time to recently this year. I was just away and I felt like, because… so I live in Chicago and you know, like the Chicago Abortion Fund is like the abortion fund in my city, in my state. And I kind of felt like I couldn't participate with repro anymore because of what had happened with them. You know, like everything, everything that happened. Like I just felt like I couldn't do that work anymore, especially locally. And so for a long time, I was just like, felt really aimless. And yeah, just, I just, it just didn't, I just didn't connect with any organizations. And then, I don't know, I guess I really missed doing that work. And I'm like, this work is so important to me, I still want to be involved. So I, at the same time, like All Options sent me a, an email being like, oh, hey, you know, to a bunch of different counselors, they were like, you're a Spanish speaking counselor, we would love to have you back. And so they did, they invited us back and I was like, yes, I'll definitely go. And then also that's kind of like when they were implementing the stipend. So that was great because I wasn't working. And that's how I got started with them. Then I'm like, you know, the M&A hotline seems really cool. And I saw that they were like taking volunteers, so I was like, oh, and it was like logistics, which was like what I did at the abortion fund. So I was like, okay, this is something I can do. And so I've been working with them. And then like also doing this, you know, like working with you, I've talked to other like graduate students and different academics that are doing research on reproductive… like the work that's done within reproductive justice and what it's like from the worker's perspective and things like that. So all of that, I think I also consider it part of it, part of my work. And yeah, like I'm working now. I have my own home, finally, with my cat, which makes me, it's like my safe place. It was really hard to find a house, like housing for months. I could not find housing for months. And I was experiencing housing insecurity again after I was fired. And yeah, like that's also part of why my mental health was so bad, where I was like, I'm just gonna die when this money runs out, so it's fine. But I think I really had people, like two people who really were there every step of the way, which my therapist, amazing, amazing therapist. And my partner at the time also like was extremely supportive. So, so yeah, I was able to get through all that and, and be here now.

  Interviewer: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for being here. That sounds like a good like ending to this recording if that's okay with you.

  Participant: Yeah.

  Interviewer: Cause my question, my last question was gonna be like how do you sustain and take care of yourself when doing this abortion work. And it sounds like you have like a good network now and like obviously housing is a big, is a big like, I wouldn't say issue, but also like support too. Like you can't do this work without having like adequate housing.

  Participant: Yeah. Yeah. That's true.

  Interviewer: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, P. Do you have anything else you wanted to add or share?

  Participant: No, no, that that was it. Thank you so much for the interview.

  Interviewer: Yeah, I'm gonna stop recording if that's okay.

  Participant: Mm-hmm.

  Interviewer: Okay. Thank you so much.